D&D 3E/3.5 Psionics 3.5: Errata and Issues to nerf?

[Thanee]

nuts? it seems pretty tame to me. You get a slight boost early on, and a minor nerf later. What is the problem? Sure if you are a wilder or have overchannel you can get a bigger boost, but then that is the point of the wilder and spending of the feat and taking the damage.

If you think +20 dispels at 10th level are not nuts... then sure!

Depending on the way you read it, it isnt so bad.

Yeah, one could limit it by reading it a bit beyond what is written there, but even than it's still too powerful (not as bad as otherwise, of course).

focus is a very strange mechanic, nice idea, fairly bad in implementation though.

Yeah.

As for schism it has some major limitations, so it shouldnt be that bad. Quicken is just as bad, if not worse, than it is for other casters. if you are giving up forcus for it, then you dont have focus for something else.

Well, there's the focus thing with Quicken Power, of course, but Schism has no such limits. And saying the -6 levels are a major limitation is pretty weird, since it is just the same as a Quickened Power that way.

My complaint is, that it allows spontaneous quicken, which it does and which no class should be able to do in 3.5.

There are a few threads about this already, but as I mentioned above comparing it across the board energy missile is actually pretty well made.

Not in my opinion. It's not even close to what a 2nd level power should be (just from the wrong side).

It's actually better than most higher levels kineticist powers as well (not even comparing with similar spells). That really can't be right.

The DC must be an error, anyways, but even with a standard DC, this power is far too good for its level.

The overall nerfing of dc's in 3.5 is already a dumb idea.

Yes, but it's there and ignoring it creates an imbalance, unless you house rule the other stuff, so it matches, which is fine as well, of course.

Just pointing out, that it is not on par with the 3.5 ruleset, which it simply isn't.

Spending some cash to get a minor boost is probably ok

Same as above.

especially with the horrible feat that psionics get (again, giving up focus. you cant use that quickened power 'and' get that +1 dc without some major efforts).

Well, it's better than Spell Focus (no school, thus 8 feats in one), but you need the focus, which is bad, so you can't do two at once (unless you use those two feats with the psicrystal).

Psionic Meditation is definitely a must-have feat for every psion, it somewhat betters the whole focus thing.

The torc is an odd one though, it is very nice indeed, but too strong? hard to say.

It's very easy to say, really.

how much such an item should cost who knows

About twice as much as written.

but 30k for a slotted item probably works as well as anything. That is the equivalent of 60k of pearls of power, which could be 60 different first level powers, which do scale with level. 60 magic missiles vs whatever the psion would get to do.. interesting choice

Why do mages suddenly get more gold than psions?

And AFAIK psions have an 'equivalent' of the pearl of power also.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

Umm... how do you figure? (Bards don't count)

-The Souljourner

There are armors out there that don't have arcane failure. Heck, Bracers of Armor come to mind. There are also armor enhancements, and even Prestige Class abilities, that work nicely if you want an armored spellcaster.

For example, an Elven Wizard/Bladesinger wearing Halfweight Full Plate +5 doesn't even have to worry about ANY other means of reducing ASF. (Halfweight is from Underdark, and any armor so enhanced, counts as Light armor; the Bladesinger has no ASF when wearing light armor). That's a +12 armor bonus, for a +6 market price (37,650gp total cost).

Or, you could have (as mentioned previously) a Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt +5, which has an ASF of 0%, and an armor bonus of +9, for 37,250gp (market price +6). Twilight is from the Book of Exalted Deeds and reduces ASF by 10%.

On top of all that, there's always a Twilight Heavy Mithril Shield +5, which costs 37,170gp for another +7 AC.

A wizard wearing the shirt, with the shield, has an AC of 26, plus dexterity modifier. The Bladesinger has an AC of 29 plus dexterity modifier - and being an elf, VERY likely has such a modifier (hence he may wish to pay extra, for the armor to be made of Mithril).

Underdark, by the by, has other armors (expensive ones) with extremely low inherent ASF: Nightscale, for example, costs 1,000gp for a +2 armor, +10 max dex, 0 Armor Check penalty, and only 5% ASF. Twilight that, and it's even a bit of overkill. Spidersilk armor (750gp, +3 armor, +8 max dex, -1 ACP, 10% ASF) with Twilight might be even better.

And there were/are armors from the Arms and Equipment guide with low (or NO) ASF, too. Moon Ivy is probably the best of those, if money is no object; it costs 16,000gp (base, more if you get one of the special options!), has a +6 max dex, no ACP at all, and only 10% ASF. And to top it off, it's ALIVE, so it's not bypassed by Brilliant Energy weapons (neat!).

 

[Scion]

If you think +20 dispels at 10th level are not nuts... then sure!

For the sheer cost of it? Sure, go for it. It is nice, but then there has to be perks somewhere. Plus, greater dispel is still better in some ways.

Yeah, one could limit it by reading it a bit beyond what is written there, but even than it's still too powerful (not as bad as otherwise, of course).

No, I have seen your readings of it. You read much more than it says, which is unfortunate. There arent a whole lot of ways to abuse it, and the abuses that it has arent exactly major. But, the other thread you were on is much better for this discussion ;/ I am sure there will be errata for it, lets hope they spell it out properly!!!

Well, there's the focus thing with Quicken Power, of course, but Schism has no such limits. And saying the -6 levels are a major limitation is pretty weird, since it is just the same as a Quickened Power that way.

You have to manifest it (spending an action), and then it can only take purely mental actions at a -6 level limit. It is pretty interesting, but I doubt it is overpowered maybe I'll be proven wrong eventually, I shall wait and see.

My complaint is, that it allows spontaneous quicken, which it does and which no class should be able to do in 3.5.

Of course, I have no problem with spontaneous casters being able to quicken. Then again, I have no problem with quickens cost being lowered greatly as well.. it is currently a bit too.. harsh.. in a lot of ways

Not in my opinion. It's not even close to what a 2nd level power should be (just from the wrong side).

It's actually better than most higher levels kineticist powers as well (not even comparing with similar spells). That really can't be right.

The DC must be an error, anyways, but even with a standard DC, this power is far too good for its level.

Very small area of effect. Also, once you start dumping pp into it then it isnt really a 2nd level power anymore. If you are paying 17 pp then it is equivalent to a 9th level spell/power. I was in another thread where there was a level by level comparison with a few different powers and spells. EM kept its own, pulled ahead sometimes, fell behind in others. Overall though I think it is very good.

As you get higher in levels peoples saves tend to increase much faster than dcs. Also, at higher levels spells that just deal damage become more and more useuseless (for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that hp ramp up so quickly). Those two combined make the power interesting. I have yet to see it be overpowering though.

Compare it with polar ray (an incredibly weak 8th level spell) and with horrid wilting, both at appropriate pp cost of course. The comparison is actualy very interesting.

Yes, but it's there and ignoring it creates an imbalance, unless you house rule the other stuff, so it matches, which is fine as well, of course.

I am currently useing 3.0 with splashes of 3.5, but if I was to move fully into 3.5 then spell focus would be +2 and there would be no greater spell focus. Done, everything is fine and happy. No need to pull out the nerf bat again

Just pointing out, that it is not on par with the 3.5 ruleset, which it simply isn't.

But it is on par, because the psionics book is a 3.5 ruleset. It isnt horribly unbalanced, it is merely another way to go. Just like if there suddenly appeared an arcane item that allowed one to expend something like focus to get an extra +1 to a spell. Same sort of thing, hasnt happened yet, but maybe someday it will never know.

Spending the cash on it is fine, giving up one type of power for another. Especially with such a minor boost in power.

Well, it's better than Spell Focus (no school, thus 8 feats in one), but you need the focus, which is bad, so you can't do two at once (unless you use those two feats with the psicrystal).

You can try to say 8 feats, but it is hogwash First, having to expend focus makes it 'much' worse. Horribly so. The other casters can have their +1 dc, +2 penetration, and extend a spell. The psion says, 'hmm.. if I have focus, which of those three do I want?'. Very harsh.

Also, spell focus for some schools is useless. There are some schools where you just dont need a dc boost as nothing uses a dc.

So at that point it is more like saying, 'this one feat is worth 5 feats, but it is worse in a lot of ways, and it is comparing it to one of the worst feats in the phb.' Not a very good comparison.

Just look at improved toughness, it is worth, potentially, an unbounded number of toughness feats. does this make improved toughness horribly overpowered? nah, it just helps to show just how weak toughness is.

Psionic Meditation is definitely a must-have feat for every psion, it somewhat betters the whole focus thing.

yeah, I am leaning more and more towards just making it a skill check. You name how fast you want to do it, and make the check. Right now it is dc 20 for a full round action. Just add on dc 25 for move equivalent, and dc 30 for free action. Without seeing it in action it seems almost perfect

It's very easy to say, really.

But, if you say it is too strong, then I think you would be wrong. For the very reasons I stated before.

About twice as much as written.

so you think it should be 60k? why?

Why do mages suddenly get more gold than psions?

Non slotted items are worth twice as much as slotted items. hence the jump in cost. Remember, the torc does take up a very important slot. That itself is a pretty big drawback.

And AFAIK psions have an 'equivalent' of the pearl of power also.

Sure, but since it works no where near the same, and are pretty horrible, then it isnt very comparable.

 

[Thanee]

For the sheer cost of it? Sure, go for it. It is nice, but then there has to be perks somewhere. Plus, greater dispel is still better in some ways.

Hello!?

No, I have seen your readings of it. You read much more than it says, which is unfortunate.

Funny, that most others (except for one or two, that insisted that it must be read in one way, which only made sense when parts were added to the sentenced ) agreed with that, tho.

But that's really not important.

I'm sure the thread starter will read the rules for himself and make up his own opinion, I was just pointing out stuff I feel inappropriate.

Of course, I have no problem with spontaneous casters being able to quicken.

That's something completely different, of course.

Very small area of effect. Also, once you start dumping pp into it then it isnt really a 2nd level power anymore.

Sure is. 2nd level. It reads 2nd level in the book regardless of how many pp you dump into it and regardless of how many pp you can dump into it in theory or practice, doesn't make it anything else but a 2nd level power. You'll always select it as a 2nd level power.

If you are paying 17 pp then it is equivalent to a 9th level spell/power.

This is correct.

A 2nd level power, which is the equivalent (not exactly, tho) to a 9th level power.

I was in another thread where there was a level by level comparison with a few different powers and spells. EM kept its own, pulled ahead sometimes, fell behind in others. Overall though I think it is very good.

Yeah, comparing one single power to half a dozen others really shows how a single power is not overpowered?

It's still a single power, not multiple powers. Only one!

Compare it with polar ray (an incredibly weak 8th level spell) and with horrid wilting, both at appropriate pp cost of course. The comparison is actualy very interesting.

No, it's pointless, because you are comparing a 2nd level power with 8th level spells.

Of course, EM will not even be that bad in comparison (not even close to each and every 2nd level spell in existance), which kinda shows how good it is, or not?

I am currently useing 3.0 with splashes of 3.5, but if I was to move fully into 3.5 then spell focus would be +2 and there would be no greater spell focus.

That's our house rule in 3.5 actually. First one, shortly after we first opened the 3.5 PHB.

so you think it should be 60k? why?

Because when you compare it to the cost for a 'slot' (or the equivalent in PP), it should be that much (about 72k, normal cost is 36k).

Non slotted items are worth twice as much as slotted items. hence the jump in cost. Remember, the torc does take up a very important slot. That itself is a pretty big drawback.

Ah, ok. That's right, of course.

Havn't really looked up the rules for the psionic 'pearl of power' yet.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Hello!?

hello to you thanee, I guess you didnt realize that greater dispel was still much better in some ways than augmented psionic dispel could ever be. Now that you know though hopefully you will realize the difference The psionic augmentation is fine.

Funny, that most others (except for one or two, that insisted that it must be read in one way, which only made sense when parts were added to the sentenced ) agreed with that, tho.

I read the thread, saying 'most others' is definately an overstatement. At best people were generally confused, picking whatever they could out of the confusion. Some hold certain readings more dearly. Personaly, I go for the one that is very limited in power, but very wide in this scope. Which seems to me as it was intended. At that point I have yet to see an overpowered combo with it.

Sure is. 2nd level. It reads 2nd level in the book regardless of how many pp you dump into it and regardless of how many pp you can dump into it in theory or practice, doesn't make it anything else but a 2nd level power. You'll always select it as a 2nd level power.
A 2nd level power, which is the equivalent (not exactly, tho) to a 9th level power.

Sure, it is a second level power.

But, once you start pumping pp into it then it is no longer effectively a 2nd level power in use. If you want to compare an unaugmented em to a second level spell/power then go ahead. Once you dump that first pp into it then you no longer can do that, the arguement is flawed.

On another board I used this comparison: Magic missile vs magic missile.

The first is left alone, but we'll just assume a 20th level caster. 5 missiles.

The second I empower, maximise, and twin.

Uh oh! magic missile is stronger than magic missile! broken!!

The comparison is roughly the same, comparing something unaugmented/wrong level to something else of a different power level is just useless. Worse than useless really since it clouds the issue.

If you pump enough pp into it to make it cost the same as a 9th level spell/power then you have to compare it with other 9th level spells/powers.

When this is done and comparing it to other spells/powers of the equivalent levels then em measures up properly. Coming out ahead here and there, and way behind elsewhere.

Yeah, comparing one single power to half a dozen others really shows how a single power is not overpowered?

::sighs:: yeah, comparing various spells and powers. You compare them one on one each time, but you still compare it to several powers. That is how comparisons work.

I am guessing that you are actually making a joke here about comparisons, but comparisons are the only real evidence we have to go by. If you dont like comparisons then come up with a better way.

No, it's pointless, because you are comparing a 2nd level power with 8th level spells.

Read the above, if you pump enough pp into it you have to compare it at the appropriate levels. Just like the magic missile above. Magic missile beats magic missile hands down, it must be horribly broken.

That's our house rule in 3.5 actually. First one, shortly after we first opened the 3.5 PHB.

It is a good houserule

Because when you compare it to the cost for a 'slot' (or the equivalent in PP), it should be that much (about 72k, normal cost is 36k).

I am unsure what you are trying to say here, could you restate the whole thought?

I was comparing a 30k item and saying that its price is fine, because it uses a slot and unslotted it would cost around 60k and 60k of pearls is generally way better than the torc

 

[Scion]

Overall, I would just say leave the whole book more or less as is and play it through. If you see anything major cropping up on the boards or in your game take a look at it, see if you think it is a problem, and only change it if absolutely necissary.

Mainly that is how it always works But, in this case, it seems that people are pretty solidly on both sides of most of the issues. Most of the problems seem to come down to play style.

General overviews are hard, and not very helpful. I would definately suggest looking around and looking at what people have said is problematic, but dont automatically assume that they are right, give it some thought. There are some things that seem way overpowered at first, but arent, and others that seem way underpowered, but may not be.

 

[Thanee]

hello to you thanee, I guess you didnt realize that greater dispel was still much better in some ways than augmented psionic dispel could ever be. Now that you know though hopefully you will realize the difference The psionic augmentation is fine.

You must be kidding... or you are insane!

What wonderful advantage would that be, that could make it better than that?

I restate... +20 Dispels (something, which needs 20th caster level) at character level 10 (and manifester level 10) !

That's beyond broken!

Uh oh! magic missile is stronger than magic missile! broken!!

*blink* Eh, sure, if you say so.

The comparison...

And where exactly did I make such a comparison?

yeah, comparing various spells and powers. You compare them one on one each time, but you still compare it to several powers. That is how comparisons work.

Yeah, but if the single power measures up to each and every of the compared ones (some better some worse), then it's quite good, or not?

I am guessing that you are actually making a joke here about comparisons, but comparisons are the only real evidence we have to go by. If you dont like comparisons then come up with a better way.

Yes, and compared to other SECOND LEVEL powers or spells, Energy Missile comes way out on top!

I am unsure what you are trying to say here, could you restate the whole thought?

A 'slot' costs level² x 1,000 gp in D&D (there are rules in the DMG about that stuff).
A 'slot' basically relates to (level x 2) - 1 PP for psionics.

For 36k you should gain a 6th level 'slot', that is 11 PP.
Now think about how many PP the torc 'gives' you in a day.

There simply shouldn't be such an item. There should be items that you could activate as a standard action and which simply give you a fixed number of PP per day then, which have to be used until the end of the next round (also you should probably not be able to use more than a single item per manifestation and the base power cost would have to come completely from the item (augmentation could be done with your own PP reserve or with whatever is left over)).

Bye
Thanee

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

1) Dispel psionics should not be able to give a +20 to dispel checks at level 10 regardless of how many PPs are expended. Nothing a wizard or cleric can do is comparable at that level. Ten pps is roughly equivalent to one 6th level spell (or a greater dispel magic).

Such an ability makes 10th level caster encounters a joke.



2) As for the the various energy powers, comparing their "spell level" with other casters is faulty. Just because Energy Missile is listed as a "Second Level Power" does not mean that it should have the same abilities as a "Second Level Spell".

The point being that every power can only be compared to a spell based on the pps spent.

Basically, a basic energy missile (3pps) should be compared to a 2nd level spell, such as scorching ray or melfs.

Whereas an augmented energy missile (11pps) should only be compared to a 6th level spell, such as chain lightning or disintegrate. (Or a maximized & empowered magic missile)

(In the specific case of energy missile and energy stun, the DC shouldn't increase so dramatically. +1 DC for every 2 pps should be the rule for every power, IMO. That brings it in line with other casters, since every 2 pps is equivalent to an increase in spell level.)









edit: I sounded kind of snippy.

 

[Thanee]

The point being that every power can only be compared to a spell based on the pps spent.

I don't think so. See below.

Basically, a basic energy missile (3pps) should be compared to a 2nd level spell, such as scorching ray or melfs.

Whereas an augmented energy missile (11pps) should only be compared to a 6th level spell, such as chain lightning or disintegrate. (Or a maximized & empowered magic missile)

Yes, comparing it to metamagicked versions is reasonable, but not to higher level spells or powers, as it still is a lower level power (augmentation is just the psionic way of scaling, more costly (to prevent uber flexibility with the PP reserve) and more effective, but essentially it is exactly that).

Still I have yet to see a 2nd level spell or power, that deals a maximum of 15d6+15 of damage at 3rd !! character level (3d6+3 per target - that is basically 5 scorching rays in one go (it has a save, but much higher range and no touch attack))! And that's ignoring the save DC augmentation (which I believe can only be an error).

Bye
Thanee

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I don't think so. See below.

Yes, comparing it to metamagicked versions is reasonable, but not to higher level spells or powers, as it still is a lower level power (augmentation is just the psionic way of scaling, more costly (to prevent uber flexibility with the PP reserve) and more effective, but essentially it is exactly that).

I disagree. "Lower level power" does not mean that it should not or cannot be compared with higher level spells. Just because you learn the power at 3rd level does not mean that at 15th level it shouldn't have the same level of effectiveness as an 8th level power, since you spent 15 pps.

The whole point of metamagic feats in the first place is to increase lower level spells to the power of higher level spells. If this isn't the case, then why do they cost the same spell slot? If an empowered, maximized magic missile is not equivalent in power to a chain lightning, then why does the former take up a 6th level slot? Shouldn't it fill a lower level slot?
.
.
.
Psions effectively get a free heighten and empower metamagic feat for every power. This is balanced because if they use all of their powers at the maximum capacity, they will quickly run out of pps, while a wizard still has truckloads of lower level spells to fall back on.

Still I have yet to see a 2nd level spell or power, that deals a maximum of 15d6+15 of damage at 3rd !! character level (3d6+3 per target - that is basically 5 scorching rays in one go (it has a save, but much higher range and no touch attack))! And that's ignoring the save DC augmentation (which I believe can only be an error).

Bye
Thanee

Produce Flame (L1) does 1d6+3 damage every round for 30 rounds. That's 30d6+90 damage.

Flame Blade (L2) does 1d8+1 damage every round for 30 rounds. That's 30d8+30 damage.

Chill Metal and Heat Metal (L2) each deal 10d4 damage.

Burning hands (L1) can potentially deal 21d4 damage


Anyway my point is that 3d6+3, where the average is 14.5 damage, isn't too overpowered when they can't be combined, nor can the targets be far apart from each other.