D&D 3E/3.5 Psionics 3.5: Errata and Issues to nerf?

[Scion]

I don't get how it can be a non-issue when a wiz/sorc has to spend tons of gold, use non-core books to get 0% arcane spell failure. All that to match the ability of the psion to cast without components

Mithril is not only very core, it is also very cheap.

Arcane casters only have spell failure for somatic component spells, not all spells have somatic components. I listed a caster type above that was perfectly viable without ever having to worry about spell failure, or even proficiency in the armor they were wearing.

so, it is a non-issue.

 

[Scion]

And where exactly did I make such a comparison?

I made the comparison. It is directly related to what you were saying however. In any event, you must compare with the most directly relatable aspects. If you put 17 pp into it, then compare it with other things that cost 17pp. To do anything else is useless for the comparison.

Yeah, but if the single power measures up to each and every of the compared ones (some better some worse), then it's quite good, or not?

Sure it is good. If it was horrible then who would bother taking it? The point of augmentation is to make it so that it stays viable throughout the psions carear. If it staying viable bothers you incredibly then I would suggest not playing with the new psionics book, as the augmentations are all over.

Yes, and compared to other SECOND LEVEL powers or spells, Energy Missile comes way out on top!

Not true. At 3rd level casting it is pretty nice, but spells like flaming sphere can actually do more. As levels increase energy missile is left farther and farther behind. At 11th level EM is still doing its meager damage with meager save, but scorching ray is doing incredible things. Of course you can augment EM, which is its advantage, but then you have to start comparing it with higher level powers/spells. Because that is effectively what it is now.

To do otherwise is to go back to the magic missile comparison.

A 'slot' costs level² x 1,000 gp in D&D (there are rules in the DMG about that stuff).
A 'slot' basically relates to (level x 2) - 1 PP for psionics.

I am guessing that you mean a spell slot. Clarity would be appreciated, since i was talking about item slots on a person there is the possibility for confusion. But yeah, a spell slot costs roughly that, when it doesnt take up an item slot.

For 36k you should gain a 6th level 'slot', that is 11 PP.
Now think about how many PP the torc 'gives' you in a day.

But of course the torc takes up a slot, so is actually worth 72k for an unslotted item. But the comparison is difficult because of the quadratic nature of the cost increase for spell slots. Immaterial though, going by your comparison then this is 22 pp. How many days will the torc actually be worth it then? Very few in my estimation, because generally people are useing powers to their full capacity. This means that if you can manifest your highest level power 7 times in a day, then you have saved yourself 7 pp. It would've been better to have the 22 pp. If you stretch yourself out, which is better generally, and use up to 22 different powers in a day then you come out even. 22 powers in a day is a lot But it can be done. If you use more than that, which is also possible, then you get a net benefit, for the cost of useing a bunch of weak powers.

sounds like a great tradeoff to me, 36k might even be a little bit too expensive at that point.

Of course this comparison is useing spell slot items, these items would be costed differently for psions, or should be, because of the lack of scaling. 72 extra magic missiles, cure light wounds, or a number of other 1st level spells would tend to be much better than the extra pp that the psion gets for the roughly equivalent amount of money. So the other casters are still way ahead with the current price.

The item is nice, but mainly it is a flavor thing. Horribly overpowered? havent seen it, the comparison done above shows the opposite.

 

[nimisgod]

Mithril is not only very core, it is also very cheap.

Arcane casters only have spell failure for somatic component spells, not all spells have somatic components. I listed a caster type above that was perfectly viable without ever having to worry about spell failure, or even proficiency in the armor they were wearing.

so, it is a non-issue.

Err, only 5-10% of core sorc/wiz spells lack somatic components. They are probably no greater than a dozen compared to the scores of spells in the PHB. True Strike, Featherfall, Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport are but a few of them.

The closest classes to the psion and the wilder are the wiz and the sorc. And the cleric/druid does not have similar party roles with the psion/wilder.

Mithral only removes 10% of arcane spell failure. A Mithral Mail Hauberk has only 10% ASF. That's one in ten spells. Ouch.

 

[Scion]

So you cast long term buffs and have other spells without somatic components.

A mithril shield can have 0% spell failure. At that point you get all of the armor bonuses you want and have up to +10 worth of stuff to play with.

After that, having mage armor up and the shield you are all set. Costs less than it does for everyone else.

Like I said, non-issue. There is even something in the arms and equipment guide to reduce spell failure by 20%, that opens up a whole new world of armors. But it doesnt matter, mage armore + a magiced up shield and you are good to go. (or a higher level spell slot on any number of intersting spells from other sources for a better ac)

 

[Taren Seeker]

Regarding the Torc, it is functionally equivalent to the +1 Caster Level Ioun stone with a little extra thrown in.

Ioun Stone: 30k unslotted.
Torc: 36k Amulet slot (oops no con or wis for you, no natural armor, no shell of air, no +1 DC boost)

An item that effectively raises your manifester level is inherently more valuable for the Psion than an arcane type since Augmentations are more powerful than an arcane bonus caster level (except with spell penetration or resisting dispels). For that increased effectiveness you are paying double with an extra opportunity cost (a valuable slot). Sounds fine to me. Hasn't been unbalanced in my games either.

 

[nimisgod]

So you cast long term buffs and have other spells without somatic components.

A mithril shield can have 0% spell failure. At that point you get all of the armor bonuses you want and have up to +10 worth of stuff to play with.

After that, having mage armor up and the shield you are all set. Costs less than it does for everyone else.

Like I said, non-issue. There is even something in the arms and equipment guide to reduce spell failure by 20%, that opens up a whole new world of armors. But it doesnt matter, mage armore + a magiced up shield and you are good to go. (or a higher level spell slot on any number of intersting spells from other sources for a better ac)

I'm supposing that you mean that an extended mage armor (one feat!) plus an enhanced mithral shield (+1 AC, 5% ASF, one in twenty failed spells) would easily make armor a non-issue.

I don't agree. And I don't think that it costs less than it does for everyone else. Especially when a psion/wilder can get full plate and a heavy shield (Armor Check Penalty be damned) to get +10 to AC vs. Mage armor+Mithral bucker (+5 total). Costs less? Not by a point by point comparison.

Armor, a non-issue? I think not.

Is the XPH balanced with the core rules? definately no, IMO.

with Core + Splat? Perhaps. Leaning more to yes if FR material is involved, since it has a higher power level than Core.

 

[Scion]

I'm supposing that you mean that an extended mage armor (one feat!) plus an enhanced mithral shield (+1 AC, 5% ASF, one in twenty failed spells) would easily make armor a non-issue.

at one hour per level, 0 feats. Two castings tends to last most/all of the day.

and 0% spell failure, take a look at the shields again.

I don't agree. And I don't think that it costs less than it does for everyone else. Especially when a psion/wilder can get full plate and a heavy shield (Armor Check Penalty be damned) to get +10 to AC vs. Mage armor+Mithral bucker (+5 total). Costs less? Not by a point by point comparison.

sure, but who cares? The actual difference is not exactly incredible. The mage can cast a slightly higher level spell for a good amount of ac. At that point the mage is 'still' way ahead, armor is not that great for casters anyway. Sure it is nice, but not really even a boon.

Yes, costs less. by the very arguements I used in my last post. Especially considering the cost of that armor check penalty to a lot of builds out there. The long list of skills it hurts is definately a pain.

However, the mage build I gave has no armor check penalty, no arcane spell failure, and he can still have the armor enhancements that he wants.

Armor, a non-issue? I think not.

Yep, definately a non-issue. There have been a lot of threads asking why arcane casters even have the penalty. Taking it away doesnt really provide them with any major bonus, sometimes not even a minor one. As they still have to worry about carrying capacity and armor check penalty, while a few simple items/spells can do the job just as well. Being nonproficient sucks.

Is the XPH balanced with the core rules? definately no, IMO.

Maybe you have some other evidence that says this, bring it up. The armor definately is a non-issue. Divine types can already wear armor anyway, other types can too but they have armor check penalties, and those are pretty extreme sometimes.

So, by the core, arcane casters can have armor with 0% spell failure and have no armor check penalty. But it doesnt matter, as they arent proficient they are hit elsewhere, and usually dont have a lot of str so that is another cut off point.

 

[Particle_Man]

Probably the best way to look at augmentable powers is to "Reverse engineer" them into 3.0 speak. Create Astral Construct is a 1st level power that is augmentable if you put more points into it. But in 3.0 it was 9 different powers, each at a different level. So think of Create Astral Construct with 5 points in it as equivalent to Astral Construct III in 3.0. Assume that a pc that learns the power really learns 9 powers.

Similarly with Energy Stun and Energy Missle. When a pc learns the power, they really learn 8 powers (more at higher levels, I guess), each costing 2 points more than before (actually I guess it would be more like 16 powers, since you have a 2.5 lvl version, a 3rd lvl version, a 3.5 lvl version, etc. Now it does scale infinitely, so you actually learn an infinite series of powers, but you are still restricted by point limits.

Ok, now that you have that, you can compare a power augmented with a certain amount of points to a spell of the equivalent level (or close to it, at least).

Hope that helps.

Hey, does a minor globe of invulnerability stop things like Energy stun and energy missle even if they have been augmented a lot?

 

[Thanee]

Yes it does. It still operates at its original level.

I think the best comparison in that context is between augmented powers and metamagicked spells. That's a pretty similar concept at least.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Particle_Man]

What is interesting is that the powers' augmentation is restricted (in respect to how they are improved) to what is permitted by the specific power, on a power-by-power basis. Metamagic (and metapsionics) are applicable to a whole slew of spells/powers, but then are limited to the specific feat in question as to how they are improved.

Personally, I like the feel of the 3.5 psionics system better than arcane magic. But then, I am an Astral Construct fan (I psychologically like the idea of creating red shirts from scratch, rather than summoning them from where they were minding their own business in their own realms).