D&D 3E/3.5 Psionics 3.5: Errata and Issues to nerf?

[Plane Sailing]

Does someone want to explain to me how the Kineticist is balanced given the energy powers to which they have access? I thought WotC was trying to scale back DC's? Did the person designing the XPH just have a major brain meltdown while making the XPH? Did he not notice that other game designers went out of their way to limit the DC's of spells for all arcane and divine casters?

You have misunderstood what the augmentation means.

psions use pp for activating powers. 1pp for a 1st level power, 9pp for a 5th level power.

If a 1st level power is augmented to 9pp (say Mind Thrust) it is the equivalent of the psion using a 5th level power from his repetoire, and it is given the DC of a 5th level power. (DC11+stat becomes DC11+4+stat == DC15+stat)

That is all there is to it. The DC's are exactly the same as a spell of the equivalent "cost".

(excepting the two powers where an error has crept in and it suggests +1DC per pp - the fact that they are different to *every other* power and break the obvious conceptual model points to the fact they are errors. Just use the standard exemplified in all other damaging powers for them).


- for another way of looking at it... imagine the augmentations as power chains instead. When a psion learns the power "Mind Thrust" he learns a 1st level, 2nd level, 3rd level etc version of it - as he gains access to a new level of powers that spell automatically becomes available at that level. It would take a lot more ink to write the powers out that way, but they *could* have done so - and it would be clear that a 5th level version of Mind Thrust does - guess what - 9d10 damage with a will st DC 15+stat for 9pp.

Cheers

 

[The Souljourner]

A few things - arcane casters getting good armor (not armor bonuses... armor) is not so easy if you don't allow cheese to creep in from other sources. Twilight and halfweight and all that crap... Using core rules and the XPH, mithril shields and studded leather are all you can get with no armor check penalty. None of this halfweight twilight mithral fullplate bull. It's stuff like those rules that make DMs not want to allow non-core rules into their games. I wouldn't mind Psions getting the same kind of failure rate that arcane casters get. It does seem like quite a bonus to be able to just wear whatever armor you want, especially if you take a single level of psychic warrior or something.

As for the busted augmentation powers, I'm with Plane Sailing, there's no way they intended those powers to have a much higher DC than any other power or spell. It's obviously a typo, and one that I'm sure will get fixed in the very first errata.

And it sounds to me like Thanee thinks augmentation is too powerful, but I totally disagree. It's the way psionics were designed and I think it's a very good design. Most arcane spells scale for free, but don't get higher DCs. Psionics scale by paying extra, but get higher DCs and some other benefits. I think that's a fair trade, especially given the spontaneous nature of psionics. Also, people who have used 3.5 psionics have commented that it's very easy to run yourself out of power points by using a ton of augmented powers. Sure, you can cast 5 level 3 (or effectively level 3) powers in a fight, but then you'll have nothing for the rest of the day.

As for spontaneous quickened casting, I really don't have a problem with it. In fact, I have house ruled in the past that spontaneous casters can quicken, and I'll do it in the future. 4 levels is a crapload extra for no tangible benefit to the spell itself. I've very rarely seen it used except at very high levels (like 16+), and that's *including* allowing spontaneous casters to using it.

While I think the Kineticist may be a little overpowered compared to a specialist wizard... I think it's only a little, and the huge amount of versatility that you give up probably makes up for it in the end. I'll have to play one and get back to you.

-The Souljourner

 

[Scion]

Allowing casters to wear armor for a cost certainly isnt broken, although I dont know about the particular ones you mentioned.

In my campaign I allow anyone who is proficient with the armor they are wearing to ignore arcane spell failure. It is much better that way. There have been zero balance issues, especially as with the core you can get that shield you mentioned. It is all you really need anyway, bracers of ac tend to be much better for the caster. Having the shield allows you to have the armor enhancements you want, and get a boost, without spell failure. No big deal.

The powers with the very high dc though (energy missile in particular) have been debated over, but it seems to come out very well compared to other spells/powers of higher levels. Actually decently balanced even with the way it scales, strangely enough.

Quicken needs some help, I am surprised it just keeps on getting printed as is. The cost it takes to use it is so incredibly high for its benefit that I just dont get it. It suffers from similar problems as maximise as well, both need some kind of help.

Augmentation is a pretty nice ability, it definately deserved to work its way in. It is a much better idea than most of the metamagic/psionic out there anyway Now there just needs to be a few here and there that emulate persistant..lol

 

[Celtavian]

You have misunderstood what the augmentation means.

psions use pp for activating powers. 1pp for a 1st level power, 9pp for a 5th level power.

If a 1st level power is augmented to 9pp (say Mind Thrust) it is the equivalent of the psion using a 5th level power from his repetoire, and it is given the DC of a 5th level power. (DC11+stat becomes DC11+4+stat == DC15+stat)

That is all there is to it. The DC's are exactly the same as a spell of the equivalent "cost".

(excepting the two powers where an error has crept in and it suggests +1DC per pp - the fact that they are different to *every other* power and break the obvious conceptual model points to the fact they are errors. Just use the standard exemplified in all other damaging powers for them).


- for another way of looking at it... imagine the augmentations as power chains instead. When a psion learns the power "Mind Thrust" he learns a 1st level, 2nd level, 3rd level etc version of it - as he gains access to a new level of powers that spell automatically becomes available at that level. It would take a lot more ink to write the powers out that way, but they *could* have done so - and it would be clear that a 5th level version of Mind Thrust does - guess what - 9d10 damage with a will st DC 15+stat for 9pp.

Cheers

Are you sure? At a cursory glance it looked as though the following was how DC's were done. 10 + base level of power + ability score...then it could be augmented with a number of power points up to the level of the Psion. For example, a 10th level Psion using a 4th level energy power could pay the 4 point activation cost then add up to 10 points of augmentation which would boost the damage by 1d6 per point and the DC by +10. Are you sure that is not how it works? That would make teh save DC 10 + 4 (For activation cost basically power level) + 6 (Intel modifier for 22 Intel) + 10 (For paying 10 additional augmentation points) = DC 30 Reflex Save for a level Kinetic power.

I will not allow Psionics as is in the campaign if they are allowing DC boosts that they went out of their way to deny casters. They changed Spellpower, Spell Focus, and even changed the Spell Enhancer spell from Magic of Faerun which a +2 DC boost to the next single spell you cast. If the XPH has written DC boosting into psionics for no other reason than to make them different, it is being change. That is so much rubbish to completely hamstring arcane and divine casters on DC boosting, and then give it to Psionic wielders.

 

[Taren Seeker]

No. The power point limit spent includes the base cost of the power.

The example you cite would be as follows: 10th level Psion manifests a 4th level power for 7 points, then can add 3 points of either augmentation or metapsionics, or both if the cap allows it. In the case pf energy missile, you manifest a 2nd level power for 3 points and add 7 points of augmentation for total damage of 10d6 and the DC assuming a 22 int is 25. Energy Missile and Energy Stun are widely considered to be misprints (as SO many have pointed out) and the DC should scale up for every 2d6 extra damage added (edit: as every other energy or straight damage power does). This makes the DC 21. Some people do argue that these 2 powers are intended to work as printed but I don't believe so.

Not to be testy but you are not allowing psi in your campaign because you only gave the rules a "cursory glance".

 

[nameless]

Are you sure? At a cursory glance it looked as though the following was how DC's were done. 10 + base level of power + ability score...then it could be augmented with a number of power points up to the level of the Psion. For example, a 10th level Psion using a 4th level energy power could pay the 4 point activation cost then add up to 10 points of augmentation which would boost the damage by 1d6 per point and the DC by +10. Are you sure that is not how it works? That would make teh save DC 10 + 4 (For activation cost basically power level) + 6 (Intel modifier for 22 Intel) + 10 (For paying 10 additional augmentation points) = DC 30 Reflex Save for a level Kinetic power.

I will not allow Psionics as is in the campaign if they are allowing DC boosts that they went out of their way to deny casters. They changed Spellpower, Spell Focus, and even changed the Spell Enhancer spell from Magic of Faerun which a +2 DC boost to the next single spell you cast. If the XPH has written DC boosting into psionics for no other reason than to make them different, it is being change. That is so much rubbish to completely hamstring arcane and divine casters on DC boosting, and then give it to Psionic wielders.

You have the augmentation details a little messed up. First off, the cost you pay for the power is counted towards the same maximum as the augmentation. A 4th level power costs 7 power points, and a 10th level manifester can spend a maximum of 10 points per manifestation. The important part of all that is that the augmentation is only for 3 points; for most powers, the base power plus augmentation will deal 1d6 damage per power point you spend (i.e. 1d6 per manifester level). Every 1 power point increases the damage by 1d6, but the DC only increases for every 2 power points. In the case you made, the third power point adds another damage die, but no DC.

The DC calculation is as follows (for the most common powers): 10 + key stat + effective power level. 10 + 6[int] + 5[4 base + 1 augmentation]. Spending 10 power points is the same as a level 5 power, and as you can see, the DC is the same as a level 5 spell. The examples that are being given for powers that augment at +1DC/pp are probably typos, and only 2 powers in the whole book have that typo.

By design, augmentation raises the DC because when a psion scales his power, he is paying the same "slot" as a higher level power would cost. But the DC is never higher than a spell of equivalent level (except in the aforementioned probable typo cases).

 

[Celtavian]

re

Thanks for the explanation. I was reading it at a friend's house and didn't get a chance to absorb the material. I also only read Energy Missile as that was the most complained about power. Sounds like they may be reasonable with some minor modification of a few powers.

 

[Scion]

Feeblemind is already a precident for increased saves above what it would normally be, same sort of thing. Slightly different, but nothing major. It still costs the psion a great deal, and has a lot of limitations.

Especially since feeblemind is pretty close to a save or die for an arcane caster anyway At least save or be out of the battle.

 

[Votan]

Overall, I would just say leave the whole book more or less as is and play it through. If you see anything major cropping up on the boards or in your game take a look at it, see if you think it is a problem, and only change it if absolutely necissary.

Mainly that is how it always works But, in this case, it seems that people are pretty solidly on both sides of most of the issues. Most of the problems seem to come down to play style.

General overviews are hard, and not very helpful. I would definately suggest looking around and looking at what people have said is problematic, but dont automatically assume that they are right, give it some thought. There are some things that seem way overpowered at first, but arent, and others that seem way underpowered, but may not be.

I actually quite like the "look and feel" of psionics in the expanded psionics handbook. It is very different than arcane magic but in a good way. It ends up feeling more like a lot of ficitonal magic (and is extremely close to systems like Julian May's and actually feels more like Robert Jordan's magic than the core mages do).

The Augmentation ability of a psion is a mixture of metamagic and higher level spells and can be directly compared to neither. The psion gains the ability to amplify powers beyond what a 2nd level spell could be amplified to in other systems but loses the automatic scaling of arcane magic (no level dependent effects).

Sure there are some things that psionics does better than arcane magic. There are things that arcane magic does a lot better than psionics (see 9th level arcane spells). It would ahve been impossible to clone the system and get the same results. Instead they created something new that balances differently then core.

But it seems balanced -- I see it both as a player and a DM and it does not dominate.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Sure there are some things that psionics does better than arcane magic. There are things that arcane magic does a lot better than psionics (see 9th level arcane spells).

Some of the things that arcane magic does better than psionics rather surprise me...

Moment of Prescience - seems like an iconic clairsentient power... but for psions it only lasts a paltry 1 min/level, unlike the useful arcane 1 hour/level. It might become available at 7th instead of 8th, but the short duration renders it pretty useless for its primary purpose.

Astral Projection - again, I would have thought this is an iconic psion power, yet it doesn't appear at all!