Psionics and magic

[Psion]

The contested power that hasn't been mentioned yet is dispel psionics - It should read that augmenting changes the maximum caster level, not the CL of the opposed roll- unless you want a 10th lvl psion to dispel magic as if he was 20th lvl.

I think that's a matter of it being badly written, instead of it being the intention.

You should either make the pp's pay for the cap, or ignore level and replace pp's spent (which is almost identical.)

 

[Staffan]

Would it cause a huge flamewar if i asked in what ways things were "broken"?

My personal nerfs:

• Metamorphic Transfer (a feat) is banned.
• Energy stun increases save DC by 1 per 2 PP.
• Energy missile affects one target. It can be augmented in two ways: +1 die of damage per PP (and +1 DC per 2 dice, not per PP), and +1 target (with the normal restrictions) for 2 PP (which do not increase save DC).
• Dispel psionics' augmentation increases the cap by 2 per extra PP, but does not affect the bonus itself. So even though a 10th level psion could theoretically augment it by 5 PP, he wouldn't get any use out of it. A 14th level psion, however, could augment it by 2 PP and roll d20+14 on his dispel check.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I liked it. XPH is very nice and the urge to replace all magic with psionics was strong within me until Arcana Unearthed came into my life.

And it's still a temptation.

Don't neglect the Erudite from Dragon if you have access to the issue in question, not certain which one it is, it's basicly a psionic version of a wizard which makes the breakdown.

Wilder=sorceror
psion=cleric
erudite=wizard

 

[The Lost Muse]

And it has been mentioned before that you don't actually *NEED* the XPH. All the information you need is in the SRD, and what is not has for the most part only been reprinted or slightly modified from the Player's Handbook.

 

[Thanee]

I like magic, but i'm also interested in psionics for a possible Eberron game. how do these compare in terms of relative overall power?

Psionics are more powerful overall. They also break some of the conventions set in the core rules.

Both have strengths and weaknesses and magic is better for some stuff, while psionics are better for other stuff, but there are some rather big issues with the rules (IMHO the biggest one is the Psion class being based on the Wizard class despite being a spontaneous manifester class and not a prepared casting class, which is pretty sad, since that's the most basic psionic class and the foundation for the whole system).

Is one way more obviously powerful than the other?

Yeah, psionics are more powerful in general, mostly because of a lot of perks, which basically come for free, though it does depend a little on the way you play. With certain playing styles, the differences will probably not surface much. Psionics, even more than any of the core concepts, require you to adapt a certain style of playing to even remotely balance them with the core rules.

It also depends on the level, though, at low levels the differences are minor and probably neglectable (apart from a few broken feats and powers, but there are broken spells as well), but at higher levels they are pretty large.

They are not 'completely horribly broken' , but there are a lot of balance issues with psionics and the creator(s) have obviously not quite realized (or don't care about) the full extend of the changes done to the magic system in the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition, as some of the psionic rules are based on 3.0 concepts still.

There are also even more ambiguous and badly written rules in the book than in most other WotC rulebooks (and the extremely lacking errata also only covers a fraction of even the most OBVIOUS errors in the book (and not even the worst ones of those)). Some guesswork is required there. But beyond the core rules, the amount of playtesting done seems to be vastly lower in general. Well, can't blame them for that, really, it takes a lot of time and effort (and thus money) to decently test a complex ruleset like that and even the core rules still had issues afterwards.

A good 'test' to see how psionics would fit into your game is to think about how different (powerwise) the Sorcerer and the Wizard class are in your games. If the Sorcerer is significantly lower in overall power than the Wizard, then psionics will probably integrate well enough. If the Sorcerer is about equal to the Wizard, however, then psionics will break the balance in your game most likely.

Are psionics too horrifically stupid to even bother with?

Stupid? No.

One 'problem' (and a big advantage from the fluffy side) is, that they work VERY different (altho they look pretty equal on first glance, there are huge mechanical differences and many new names and terms). If the extra work of basically having to go through a complex set of completely new rules does not bother you, that's not an issue, though.

I would have to buy the XPH, so i'm wondering if i should bother.

Not really, most of the content is available in the Psionics SRD.

I understand that we're comparing apples and oranges in some ways, but when you think about it, apples and oranges are both round, sweet and fruit, and as such, have many similarities.

Yup, there are many similarities and many differences as well, but they are surely comparable.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

A few effective fixes to some specific issues:

Energy Missile (and other such powers) should grant +1 DC per +2 PP spent on augmentation only.
All offensive Energy powers should have one fixed energy type chosen when the individual power is learned. There should be a feat to change it, similar to Energy Substitution.
Energy Missile should either have only a single target (multiple targets would be ok as an augmentation) or be more like a 4th level power.
Dispel Psionics should either be fully augmentable with no scaling (a fixed +5 dispel check with +1 per +1 PP) OR there should be two versions, one regular (up to +10) and one greater (up to +20). Both are ok, but I'd prefer the first. Mixing scaling and augmentation is definitely not a good idea.
Psionic Dominate should be revised to not allow types other than humanoid before at least 13th better 15th level.
Metamorphic Transfer should be banned (there is no fix for this brokenness) and be replaced by Assume Supernatural Ability and its greater version from Savage Species.
Psychic Reformation should be banned.
Schism should be banned OR Expanded Knowledge should not allow to pick powers you could not normally learn.
Expanded Knowledge should not allow to learn powers from other class lists (only from other disciplines).
Quicken Power should be banned.
Overchannel and Talented should be banned.
No effect whatsoever should ever increase a manifester's manifester level, except for gaining a class level and the Wild Surge.
Torc of Power Preservation should be banned.
Psionatrix should be banned OR there should be a similar item for spellcasters as well.
Metamagic Rods should be banned OR there should be a similar item for manifesters as well.
Power Penetration and its greater version should only provide half benefit, but not expend the psionic focus. The manifester should be psionically focused to use them, tho.
Psionic Endowment and its greater version should only work for one discipline, but not expend the psionic focus. The manifester should be psionically focused to use them, tho.
Psions should gain access new power levels starting at 4th class level and every 2 levels thereafter (same as the Sorcerer). Also, the number of powers they learn over the 20 levels should be slightly reduced (optional).
The DC for all Concentration checks involving psionics should be 5 higher than the equivalent DC involving spellcasting (if there is an equivalent, especially when taking damage, manifesting on the defense and manifesting in a grapple).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Graf]

Psionics are fine as written. (Not that I think that you Thanalee has no point, but they won't "break your game").
Generally a psionic power (with a handful of exceptions) is less powerful than a comparable spell of the same level.
I personally wouldn't make the effort of working up zillions of tichy little changes (no offence intended, I think that thinking about the balance issues on a minute level are valuble and important and the people who have been posting them are doing a service to the community. But I don't think the system is out of kilter, certainly not to the degree that it needs line-item-veto type changes).

The majorproblem (and I'm a lover of psionics as a DM and as a player) is that some people who play psionics play fast and loose with the rules. I've seen it once or twice and heard about it a few more times but the basic problem is that, unlike Magic, most DMs aren't familiar with the rules set and players are tempted to suggest an incorrect-but-advantageous-to-them interpretation of the rules.

In my experience this rarely has a large impact on the game. Most players who do this try to make their powers useful every round and just blow through their power points.
People who lock down the rules in their heads and focus on making good tactical decisions (and the flagrant cheaters) are invariably more effective than people who waste time trying to fudge the rules.

If you are concerned then just read over the psionic characters known powers before the game starts. And don't be afraid to ask a few questions when the psion does something (like "Ok, what level power is that?" "Ok, how many points are you spending base? and how many extra?"). Feel free to take 30 seconds during the game and skim over the power they are using if it seems like its too powerful for second level.

[Edit= I'm weak on combat feats and so at the begining of every attack my players just list what feats they are using and how that impacts the action before the role. Just have people do the same thing with psionics until you get the hang of it.]

Just my opinion.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Psions can bring lots of power to bear in one fight. If you only run a few fights per day all the time, they will be spotlight hogs.

Yes, in that regard, they're even worse than spellcasters, I think, but if you run more encounters (or vary it, to keep them guessing), it should not be a problem.

Also beware of those going for the "D&D day": They'll start blasting away with all they got from round one. After about half an hour of exploring, they'll be completely drained, and start complaining that they need to rest now or be useless for the fights (we had that, he got really whiny about it). We introduced the rule that every spellcaster, manifester and whatever can only replenish their energies once a day, at a specific time, just like a priest. Works fine.

Psions have a sorcerer like flexibility, but more feats.

I consider this a fair cop, BUT I consider the sorcerer weak compared to the wizard and ergo not a good comparison point. (Interestingly, some variant games and products have versions of the sorcerer that get wizard like feats or other capabilities.)

I agree. Sorcerers are neglected too much. They should have bonus feats or anything for that matter.

Would it cause a huge flamewar if i asked in what ways things were "broken"?

Only if you say "I say that older editions psionics were much better than that new-fangled crap" or something like that.

I'm in the "no power needs +1 DC per pp" camp

Me, too. It goes against the "we have to tone down dc's considerably" motto 3.5 has. Easy to fix, though.




Oh, one thing: Treat psionics just like magic for purposes of what affects what. Dispel magic will dispel psionics, SR is PR, and so on. If you don't do that, you'll have to make Psionics a major think in your campaign, about as common as arcane magic and divine magic, or psionicists will be too powerful.

 

[the Jester]

Oh, one thing: Treat psionics just like magic for purposes of what affects what. Dispel magic will dispel psionics, SR is PR, and so on. If you don't do that, you'll have to make Psionics a major think in your campaign, about as common as arcane magic and divine magic, or psionicists will be too powerful.

Yeah, you have to at least use a 'translucency' effect. For instance, imc detect magic and detect psionics are distinct, but dispel magic and negate psionics work on both magic and psionics (though there is a -4 against the 'wrong type'). Likewise, PR and SR are reduced by 4 against spells and powers, respectively. This 'fine tunes' resistances and makes magic and psionics distinct, but still effective either way (just less effective when applied in the 'wrong direction').

 

[Scion]

It goes against the "we have to tone down dc's considerably" motto 3.5 has.

Note however that the reduced dcs are mainly because there were so many ways before and it made 'save or die' type spells too much. If one did such a thing on damage dealing spells only people wouldnt really have cared much, it only mattered for those spells which literally ended a battle in a single cast (which damage dealing spells didnt do unless you were going against something 'much' weaker than you, or had a major weakness and you rolled really well and it was low on the hp scale)

Besides that, 3.5 went way overboard in its nerfing of dcs in general anyway. They treated a symptom rather than the real issue and now we have to face other repurcusions which are very unfortunate. (save or die type effects are the major problem here, get rid of those and generally it is ok to be able to get decently high dcs. such as with this power, it is only damage, and elemental damage, and generally only to one or two targets, and there are several devastating ways to stop it).