Psionics: Balance and Integration

[Nail]

Ooooh, caught me with the bait and switch! Shucks!

Seriously: I've seen a non-egoist psion take this power. It's so good, it's hard not to. And the concentration check isn't out of reach: At level 5, Max skill ranks of 8, some (much needed) Con, and a cheap magic item of Concentration +5 and you're nearly there! No need for a Skill Focus feat or the like...although they are also possible.

By the time the Psion is above 10th level, the check is practically a given.

 

[KarinsDad]

I know a Sor and a Wiz that would *kill* for access to this power as a spell. (DR 10/Psionics! Very few monsters could overcome this....) Oh and look....it's the same level as fly!

Kill is the proper word for this.

Dismiss Ectoplasm if successful will either kill or shift to the Astral Plane someone with this up.

In some ways, Ectoplasmic Form is a slightly more potent version of Gaseous Form, but it does not last as long either (1 min per level versus 2 mins per level). Very few monsters could overcome the DR 10/Magic of Gaseous Form either.

The advantages Ectoplasmic Form have over Gaseous Form are that:

1) NPCs probably have access to magic weapons more often than psionic weapons.
2) You can manifest any power with it up. Casters using Gaseous Form are limited to spells without components.
3) It has a Fly speed of 20 instead of 10.

The advantages Gaseous Form have over Ectoplasmic Form are:

1) It has double the duration.
2) You cannot be killed with a dismissal spell under Gaseous Form.
3) Most core arcane casters (and even some Clerics) can acquire it without using up a feat. Most psions need to use up a feat to acquire Ectoplasmic Form. And, most psions cannot get EF until 9th level.
4) Casting non-component spells have no chance of spell failure. Manifesting powers requires a DC 20 + power level concentration check or lose the PP.


Pros and Cons for both.

You are not being objective here.

 

[Vurt]

My players aren't nearly crafty enough *cough* to come up with a magic item that bumps Concentration checks, and I haven't noticed anything in the DMG or XPH, but if there's something I've missed please let me know.

Honestly, to me it looks like the exact same spell, with a different mechanic allowing for the casting of spells.

At mid levels, the average psion is given the opportunity to burn a feat and play roulette with their precious PP at the low-low-rate of 2:1, give or take, whereas the average arcane caster knows whether or not they have the appropriate feats to pull it off via metamagics. At high levels, both can cast spells under its effect reliably.

For both psions and wizards, it takes some work to do this consistently, and risks turning the character into a one-trick pony. A good trick, to be sure, but not an insurmountable one, given that an effective counter to it (dispel magic) is the same level.

The general argument that 3.5e psionics is overpowered may be true, but I don't think ectoplasmic form is going to be the deciding Nail *groan* in that particular coffin.

All right, all right, I'll stop... *GRIN*

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Thanee]

My players aren't nearly crafty enough *cough* to come up with a magic item that bumps Concentration checks, and I haven't noticed anything in the DMG or XPH, but if there's something I've missed please let me know.

Wasn't there a third eye of concentration, which grants a bonus to Concentration checks in the XPH?

The general argument that 3.5e psionics is overpowered may be true, but I don't think ectoplasmic form is going to be the deciding Nail *groan* in that particular coffin.

Heh. No, probably not. It *is* a lot better, than Gaseous Form, tho.

I also don't think, that being on a discipline list makes powers "better", or in other words, I don't think the discipline list powers are generally better than the regular ones. They are just more limited to Psions (one of their disadvantages (and certainly done to keep their extreme flexibility somewhat in check), that they have a rather narrow list to pick from).

So, discipline power or not, they should be compareable to equal or similar ranked spells.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

You are not being objective here.

Me, not objective? Nonsense! (Note the smiley-- no need to get your hackles up, anyone!)

As an aside: I'm glad to have these sorts of debates about psionics. IME, Psionics has been out of balance......I'm keenly interested in how in the world someone could possibly think otherwise.

Dismiss Ectoplasm if successful will either kill or shift to the Astral Plane someone with this up.

True. And I can count with zero fingers the number of monsters that have this power.

I see in order to balance this (along with Astral Construct, Ectoplasmic coccoon, etc) I need to equip a substantial number of my bad guys with Dismiss Ectoplasm ability. Consider it done.

2) You can manifest any power with [Ectoplasmic Form] up. [Arcane] Casters using Gaseous Form are limited to spells without components.

And there are exactly zero spells without components.

Arcane Casters need to spend metamagic feats to get rid of components. The most likely metamagic feat the arcane caster might have that qualifies is Quicken Spell, followed (distant second) by Silent Spell. No one takes Still Spell, and few take Eschew Materials.....so really, quicken Spell is the only serious option. (Sudden metamagics are once per day, so are not really comparable.)

How many quickened high level spells are on that PCs sheet? And how many of those are attack spells? (BTW, if you have any suggestions, my BBEG would love to hear it!)

In any event, casters that prepare spells would have to do just that: prepare these metamagic spells, in higher level slots. Psions don't have to (and certainly don't have to worry about the higher level slot thing). A sorserer could pull it off tho', with full round actions.

Allow me to apologize, but the other points you've listed don't seem particularly compelling (fly speed, need a feat to get Ectoplasmic form, chance of power failure). Still, thanks for the list and effort.

 

[Nail]

The general argument that 3.5e psionics is overpowered may be true, but I don't think ectoplasmic form is going to be the deciding Nail *groan* in that particular coffin.

All right, all right, I'll stop... *GRIN*

Cheers,
Vurt

Ouch.

As I look through the list of powers, I see a significant number that break the balance just a wee bit. Many are close, I'll grant. But if power after power after power is slightly high on the power scale........

 

[Vurt]

As I look through the list of powers, I see a significant number that break the balance just a wee bit. Many are close, I'll grant. But if power after power after power is slightly high on the power scale........

Perhaps, but you also get less of them. And not all of the powers are better. (Cloud mind and catfall come to mind as obvious examples of weaker powers.) It seems to me to be kind of like comparing the paladin spell list to the bard spell list. They get access to things at different levels, some better, some worse, but by-and-large average out.

If you're having a problem with psionic casters in the game you run, that's a totally different problem, and you could simply be overlooking some things. For instance, you mention that the DR 10/psionics is over the top, since there's no critter in the MM that can hit it. But the XPH recommends its psionic transparency rules for just this reason. Psionics, in effect, simply becomes another form of magic. Then that DR 10/psionics becomes the equivalent of DR 10/magic, which I think allows any creature with some DR X/magic of its own to hit the ectoplasmic form'ed psion without too much difficulty.

And that's ignoring NPCs and critters with class levels and magic weapons. But consider, with the transparency dispel magic can also dispels psionics. Not to mention, just because you're ectoplasmic or gaseous doesn't mean you're not targetable! Magic missile works just fine, as does fireball, ice storm, flame strike, scorching ray, etc. Spells ignore DR, so any critter that has an offensive spell-like ability can still whack the player's character.

Now I'm not saying you've missed any of these things, I have no idea, really. But I have, in some of my past games, and it's only through discussion (and lots of help from these forums) that I've been able to better balance my game. So maybe bring up some specific issues, and let us see if there isn't something you're missing. And maybe soon your player's psion will be running for the psychic reformation power, MUAHAHAHAHA!

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[KarinsDad]

Ooooh, caught me with the bait and switch! Shucks!

Seriously: I've seen a non-egoist psion take this power. It's so good, it's hard not to. And the concentration check isn't out of reach: At level 5, Max skill ranks of 8, some (much needed) Con, and a cheap magic item of Concentration +5 and you're nearly there! No need for a Skill Focus feat or the like...although they are also possible.

By the time the Psion is above 10th level, the check is practically a given.

I don't know of any cheap +5 Concentration items in WotC books.

10th level Psion with 16 Con and maxxing out Concentration would still have a 20% power failure on a first level power and a 40% power failure on a fifth level power.

Gee, that sounds similar to arcane spell failure due to armor.

 

[Thanee]

Dunno, if there is a +5 one anywhere (there are so freaking many books, you'll never be sure ), but in the XPH (SRD) there is this:

Third Eyes: These objects appear as small crystals, always with at least one wide, flat facet, and contain a variety of powers. When the owner uses the proper command thought, the crystal adheres to the center of his forehead (the same command thought causes the third eye to disengage). Only one third eye can be worn at a time.

A third eye is treated as eyewear or goggles for the purpose of determining which items can be worn on the body.

Concentrate: This kind of third eye continually grants the wearer a +10 competence bonus on Concentration checks.
Moderate telepathy; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, creator must have 10 ranks in Concentration; Price 10,000 gp.

Quite affordable by 10th level... especially if it is useful (also nice for regaining Psionic Focus, IIRC).

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

And there are exactly zero spells without components.

Arcane Casters need to spend metamagic feats to get rid of components. The most likely metamagic feat the arcane caster might have that qualifies is Quicken Spell, followed (distant second) by Silent Spell. No one takes Still Spell, and few take Eschew Materials.....so really, quicken Spell is the only serious option. (Sudden metamagics are once per day, so are not really comparable.)

How many quickened high level spells are on that PCs sheet? And how many of those are attack spells? (BTW, if you have any suggestions, my BBEG would love to hear it!)

In any event, casters that prepare spells would have to do just that: prepare these metamagic spells, in higher level slots. Psions don't have to (and certainly don't have to worry about the higher level slot thing). A sorserer could pull it off tho', with full round actions.

Allow me to apologize, but the other points you've listed don't seem particularly compelling (fly speed, need a feat to get Ectoplasmic form, chance of power failure). Still, thanks for the list and effort.

The point you avoided is that arcane spell casters CAN go gaseous and cast spells if they pick the appropriate feat(s).

Just like psions CAN go ectoplasmic and manifest powers if they pick the appropriate feat (Expanded Knowledge).