Psionics: Balance and Integration

[Thanee]

OverChannel can be pretty nice, but I think it is only useful at mid to higher levels.

I think, that most psionic "problems" (IMHO) start at mid to high levels, actually. That is mostly because psionic power (in a similar way as spellcasting) grows in multiple dimensions over time.

At low levels there is very little unbalancing with psionics (Energy Missile would be one such thing).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

1) Summoned monsters are outsiders, so they generally have a halfway decent chance of winning the Will save. Also Dismiss Ectoplasm is level 3 and effects multiple targets.

Summoned Monsters are not usually outsiders. Look over those lists again. Most are Magical Beasts.

"Dismiss Ectoplasm"? Is there a non-psionic equivalent for Sor/Wiz/Clr/Drd/Pal/Rgr/etc? There isn't, is there. Huh. And yet any spell caster at all can take care of summoned monsters. Balanced?

Face it: Astral Constructs are way better than Summoned Monsters. Why?

Answer: 'Cause it's psionics, silly. Psionics is just better.

 

[Nail]

I personally don't like the way that the energy powers can be configured on the fly - partly because it means opponents energy resistance is largely useless against psions and partly for flavour reasons.

What's the phrase I'm looking for? Oh yeah: "Testify, Brother."

To my mind Astral Construct would be OK if they were hedged out by Protection from Evil like summoned critters.

They would still be vastly superior. I've seen it.

 

[Nail]

Well, at least for the Gnome Shaper of my example who did indeed use Overchannel to summon higher version Astral Constructs, this didn't cause a problem.

...because as you've also said: "he was four levels lower than the rest of the party". !!!! Of course it wasn't a problem!

Our party's Psion(shaper) uses overchannel all the time. And he's built his PC so he has the hp to do it. While my Clr 14 is summoning CR 7 elementals, the Psi 14 is summoning CR 9 Astral Constructs.

 

[Nail]

This is a great point that isn't often brought up. Even if a 20th level Psion is manifesting 9th level Astral Constructs, augmented to 20 PP, they are worthless in the face of the globe
spells.

Oh dear.

You really shouldn't have told me that.

<cackle>

 

[Rystil Arden]

...because as you've also said: "he was four levels lower than the rest of the party". !!!! Of course it wasn't a problem!

Our party's Psion(shaper) uses overchannel all the time. And he's built his PC so he has the hp to do it. While my Clr 14 is summoning CR 7 elementals, the Psi 14 is summoning CR 9 Astral Constructs.

But the point of the matter is that psion Shapers don't have to be balanced with nonpsion summoners of any particular class as long as they are balanced with a wizard who isn't using suboptimal strategies because summoning in combat is usually suboptimal. Psions are better at summoning, but they are worse at blasting and party buffs. Its a tradeoff, and I don't see a problem. You can argue about specialising in the psion's niche, but the same goes for barbarians vs fighters: if a fighter wants to smash people hard with his giant axe for maximum damage, the barbarian will do it better. Just look at the warmage as an example using damaging spells. For better or for worse, loss of versatility is seen as a balancing factor for expertise in one's specialty

 

[Thanee]

...but they are worse at blasting...

Uhm?!

...and party buffs...

Ok, that is so, definitely.

Its a tradeoff, and I don't see a problem.

How I see it, there is very little tradeoff, far less than what is gained overall. That is precisely why I think the Psion class is not balanced with the core rule arcane spellcasters (which it should be).

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Answer: 'Cause it's psionics, silly. Psionics is just better.

This is inaccurate.

Psionics is different.

Better in many areas, worse in many others.

Psions cannot really go Invisible (Cloud Mind is a joke compared to Invisibility).

Most psions (except Nomads who can fly at 7th level) cannot fly until 11th level unless they take a feat, in which case they can fly at 9th level. Wizards can fly at level 5 and Sorcerers can fly at level 6. Even a Cleric with the Travel Domain can fly at level 5.

A higher percentage of psionic powers are close range powers. This is one which most people either ignore or forget, but it comes up in our game nearly every session.

"Opps, it would be great to Entangling Ectoplasm that Archer 150 feet away, but it will take me several rounds to get close enough."


You cannot just look at the best psionic powers and say "See, they are more powerful than Wizards and Sorcerers in this area, hence, they are better.".

You have to look at the entire picture (like number of PP expended in order to achieve a similar result, arcane-like abilities that cannot be done as well, etc.). Yes, Psions have many powers that are better. But, they also have many that are worse.

Feather Fall vs. Catfall anyone???

 

[Nail]

You cannot just look at the best psionic powers and say "See, they are more powerful than Wizards and Sorcerers in this area, hence, they are better."

And if I (or others here) were "just looking", then you'd have a point. And if we were just looking "in this area", as opposed to some other similar sized area for Sor/Wiz, then you'd have a point.

But that's not what's been written, now or previously.

IME, and while reading these boards for the past several years, the psions have never appeared balanced -- they've always pushed that "balance" envelope, and required special fudges by the DM to get it balanced and integrated.

[EDIT]In fact, the more I think about it, the more that seems to be the primary problem: Integration. In order to integrate, you're gonna have to boost Sor/Wiz/Clr/Drds in some way to compensate. And, you'll have to add a significant mix of psionic monsters, traps, and limitations.

Is changing the entire system worth including psionics?

 

[KarinsDad]

And if I (or others here) were "just looking", then you'd have a point. And if we were just looking "in this area", as opposed to some other similar sized area for Sor/Wiz, then you'd have a point.

But that's not what's been written, now or previously.

IME, and while reading these boards for the past several years, the psions have never appeared balanced -- they've always pushed that "balance" envelope, and required special fudges by the DM to get it balanced and integrated.

We have two psions in our current party and although it is nice to have Energy Missile seriously damage several opponents, our group is often seriously challenged by encounters that a simple Web or Entangle spell would overcome.

I think you have to actually play a psion to find out his weaknesses. While the 6th level Wizards and Sorcerers can fly away when they get in trouble, the psions basically stay on the ground and suck it up.

Just reading the boards here doesn't seem to cut it like actual gaming experience.