Psionics Handbook 3.5 Confirmed!

[Dr_Rictus]

What's that you say? Psionics has crappy healing? Guess you want the standard magic system then.

One of these days I'll probably try an all-psionics campaign, healing or no.

As has been noted, during combat, it's tough, because everything goes through empathic transfer. Between combats, though, a properly specialized psion can shell out huge numbers of hit points. It's about 4.5 hit points per power point (slightly less because of the occasional transfer between series of lesser body adjustments), but Trigger Power on lesser body adjustment can easily double that in the long run if you've got a good Strength.

The other factor here (particularly with the errata'd versions of the powers) is that if you look at the rules for how temporary hit points work, there's nothing stopping them from absorbing much of an empathic transfer. That improves your healing throughput to 9 hit points per power point (18 for each vigor/empathic transfer pair) even before you start mucking with Trigger Power and such.

This is important because D&D is designed around wearing the party down across multiple encounters. Between-combats healing can therefore be a major factor, though you still need a strategy for emergencies in combat.

I'm pretty convinced that the all-psionics campaign works as far as healing is concerned, though it clearly works differently. But I've never had the chance to try the experiment.

 

[Perun]

We've had a psionic character in our two last campaigns (the current is run by me, and we have a 5th-level egoist, the other campaign is on pause now, and there we have Ftr 1/Psi (savant) 1/PsyWar 6).

I can't say whether they're overpowered, or underpowered, or whatever, since they're both played by the same player who is always intent on min/maxin his characters, even though he's only vaguely familiar with the rules. He tends to make sub-optimal choices (taking Inertial Armour feat, and then wearing full plate, for example).

However, I can say what slightly annoys me about 3e psionics -- it's item creation and metapsionic feats. The core D&D, meaning the three core rulebooks, have established the "standard" item creation and metamagic feats. These are (sort of) fine (I have some problems with them as well, like rods having their own feat, when they're essentialy stick-shaped wondrous items, but that's for another rant). Most importantly, if you play a multiclass spellcasting character, both the item creation and metamagic feats are available to all your spellcasting classes to use freely (so long as you can pay the cost, of course). If you have Wiz 5/Clr 5 with Scribe Scroll and Empower Spell feats, you can make a scroll of fireball and prepare an empowered cure light wounds one day, and then scribe a scroll of Endurance, and prepare an empowered Melf's acid arrow.

When psionics come into the picture, you now have a double set of feats. Ehy do psionics need separate item creation feats? I know that maybe psions brewing potions might seem silly to a number of people, but why simply not say that psionic characters use rules for brewing potions, but instead of brewing an actual potion, they paint a psionically charged tattoo on someone's body, which has the same effects and follows the same rules as standard D&D magic potions? And why not simply say that the metapsionic feats are merely metamagic feats, but instead of taking up higher level slots, they simply add PP cost equal to 2 PP per higher spell level (for example, Empower Spell feat, which psions call Overpower (or whatever) simply adds +4 to the PP cost to manifest an overpowered power).

That way a Clr 5/Psi 5 doesn't have to spend his few feats on two diffferent sets of feats that accomplish the same thing. Especially with the default assumption that psionics are same as magic (an idea I otherwise favour over the 1e/2e psionics-are-different thing).

Anyways, just IMO.

 

[woodelf]

You should have asked on the 'net. I found it impossible to build a second edition psionicist who wasn't overpowered. Some were broken just on paper, others took an adventure or two before the player and DM realized it was broken.

The single-classed psionicist i played woul have been in ~'91-'92. AFAIC, there wasn't a 'net then to ask. I'd only heard of email, and nobody i knew actually had access to email, much less UseNet or Gopherspace.

Ok, i was a bit tongue-in-cheek the last time, and i think my point was missed, so i'll come right out and say it this time: 2e psionics were *not* broken, and were *not* a balance problem. That's my experience. I can either go with the dozen+ groups that i ran, played in, or heard about over more than a decade of using AD&D2, at all character levels, and all styles of play, which never had a single house rule for psionicists [several had houserules for wild talents], and never had a balance problem, unless it was that the psionicists were too weak, or a i can go with what i hear from people i've never met online, who bring up issues that are not inherent to the rules, but are partially dependent on playstyle. This is nothing personal, but given that every concrete complaint that anyone has made about psionics in 2e involves an element of the player group, i don't see why i should conclude that mechanics that i never had a problem with, despite players who *tried* to abuse them, are "broken".

Specific example: the disintegrate power is often cited as one of the most broken elements of 2e psionics. It cost, IIRC, 20psps, and the putative 3rd level psionicist would probably have ~45psps. And, if you rolled a 20 trying to use it, you were dead, no save, no resurrection, no protection possible. IME, those were sufficient cons to balance the pro of what it could do. Apparently, in other groups, this wasn't, and it got used a lot, and the players were lucky. The fact of the matter is that there *were* balancing factors in 2e psionics. Now, for some playstyles or groups, they may not have been sufficient. But i don't think you can simply dismiss my experiences with multiple groups (as in, every D&D group i've had 1st- or 2nd-hand experience with) --if the mechanics were as broken as some claim, how would it be possible for us, without houserules, not to have problems, given a fair incidence of psionics in the groups?

Sorry to get all steamed about this, but it's one of my hot buttons: i still think that 2e psionics was (1) the best version of psionics ever published for D&D and (2) not a balance problem at all, at least in any of the ways we played the game (and, yes, for some groups, that meant power-mongering munchkinism). This is compounded by my experiences at how unbalanced so many aspects of D&D3E are, that people are willing to gloss over via playstyle. I have trouble understanding why people are willing to accept a degree of imbalance that drives me batty, on the one hand, and yet won't use mechanics that, IME, are less imbalanced. It's not the difference of opinion--i recognize that balance is more subjective than objective, and my experiences/opinions are not universal--it's the refusal to accept that a non-universal experience might point to the problem being at the level of the playgroup, rather than the mechanics themselves.

 

[woodelf]

I'd prefer for it to be possible for two telepaths to whack at each other with their minds, but not mandatory that the psychometabolic guy that just wants to kill things also has to use mental attacks and defenses.

Well, that's how i did it when i had to develop a psi system from scratch: there're "Psionic Attack" and "Psionic Defense" skills, but they're just bonuses. You don't need any special skill to conduct psionic combat, you just use a power, and the other guy resists. *if* you have the attack/defense skills, the function as bonuses when you're directly fighting another psychic, but that's it. Basically psychic combat tends to play a lot like in the various Scanners movies: they're not doing anything different than when they try and affect a non-psychic, it's just that the target is better able to resist, and has counter-attacks of her own. Which means that if you don't have any psychic abilities that can be used to directly affect another person, you don't do "psionic combat".

[And, on the off chance anyone cares: yes, i'm working on porting the system to D20. It mostly just needs to be rescaled, and some DCs assigned.]

 

[Piratecat]

It really baffles me when people say that "psionics isn't a part of fantasy" or "psionics doesn't fit in", especially after reading books like:

Robert Adams' Horseclans books
MZB's Darkover books
Katherine Kurtz' Deryni books
Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books

Well, here's a little bit of trivia. 2e psionics are taken almost whole cloth from Julian May's books. She wrote a few wonderful series (starting with "The Many-Colored Lands", and continuing through several trilogies through "Jack the Bodiless") meshing psionics with legends of fey, and ended up with quite an interesting system.

 

[Spatula]

Specific example: the disintegrate power is often cited as one of the most broken elements of 2e psionics. It cost, IIRC, 20psps, and the putative 3rd level psionicist would probably have ~45psps. And, if you rolled a 20 trying to use it, you were dead, no save, no resurrection, no protection possible. IME, those were sufficient cons to balance the pro of what it could do. Apparently, in other groups, this wasn't, and it got used a lot, and the players were lucky. The fact of the matter is that there *were* balancing factors in 2e psionics.

Disintigrate is a good example of how low-level 2E Psis could access high-level effects (available at 3rd level). Teleport or Dimension Door are better examples since they're available at 1st level, and can be used to avoid or bypass all sorts of obstacles that characters of that level normally will have trouble with. But Disintigrate is not a good example of the more extreme broken aspects of the system, though, since it allows the target a saving throw. A LOT of 2E powers do not, and in fact there is little to defense against them. Telepathy powers are the worst offender here - you can put up a fight if you have psionic defense modes, but otherwise you are almost certainly screwed. Ego Whip (-5 to all rolls, no save) or Id Insinuation (do nothing for 1d4 rounds, no save) were some of the more popular choices to use against the BBEGs in my groups, and they both cost peanuts in terms of PSPs. Oh, Invincible Foes was another good one (if the target takes 1 pt of damage he thinks he's dead and falls down, no save).

The only balancing factor was that the Psionicist could possibly fail to activate a power, but that was solely dependant on the Psi's stats. A Psion with a high INT & WIS will get most powers off most of the time, so that's not much of a balance. But the thing that irked me was that the capabilities of the target (unless psionic) made absolutely no difference at all.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Bruce Cordell,

You need to make sure Psionic Blast is changed to single target or something. Make the roll for determining the DC of a Power an optional rule. You make these two changes, and I might allow psionics in my campaign since one of my players enjoys playing a psionicist.

I certainly won't allow psionics in my game while a player can chain Psionic Blasts as a Psychic Warrior on multiple targets with the posibility of setting the Will save DC so high that no fighter/rogue, and possibly even the cleric and wizard will be unable to fight.

Psionic blast is more powerful than any wizard spell, any single friggin wizard spell in the game and is as easy to obtain and use as a 1st level spell. Please change Psionic Blast, it is way overpowered as is.

There is no reason why the default setting for psionics is to roll a d20 to set power DC's when magic is by default a 10. Psionics needs to be more consistent with magic.

For the love god Bruce, please make sure if you revise that book you compare the psionic powers with the power of magic. An easily obtainable power like Psionic Blast shouldn't be more powerful than 9th level wizard spells. I challenge you to name a 9th level wizard spell with as good an effect as Psionic Blast.

 

[Staffan]

Re: Re

Bruce Cordell,

You need to make sure Psionic Blast is changed to single target or something. Make the roll for determining the DC of a Power an optional rule. You make these two changes, and I might allow psionics in my campaign since one of my players enjoys playing a psionicist.

I'm not Bruce, but I'll try to refute some of these points anyway.

The "random DC" is already optional, or rather, there's an optional rule for making it 10+modifiers instead of d20+modifiers. Nothing stopping you from enacting that in your home game.

In Mindscapes, by Bruce as well, Mind Blast is changed to only stun for 1d4 rounds instead. In the original version, there was a special note that Mind Flayers and their kin stunned people for 3d4 rounds with it (as per the MM), but when WOTC released the official SRD without mind flayers, that bit was removed.

I certainly won't allow psionics in my game while a player can chain Psionic Blasts as a Psychic Warrior on multiple targets with the posibility of setting the Will save DC so high that no fighter/rogue, and possibly even the cleric and wizard will be unable to fight.

On the other hand, there's a significant chance that the save DC will be so low that you're almost guaranteed to succeed.

Psionic blast is more powerful than any wizard spell, any single friggin wizard spell in the game and is as easy to obtain and use as a 1st level spell. Please change Psionic Blast, it is way overpowered as is.

No, it isn't. Psionic Blast uses as many PPs as a 5th level power, and has the save DC of a 4th level power. And stunning people for a few rounds might be a pretty powerful effect, but it's not "more powerful than any single friggin wizard spell in the game". With 5th level spells (the equivalent to Mind Blast), the wizard can either kill hordes of wimps, absolutely take control of a single NPC, paralyze almost any opponent, or totally neutralize an opposing spellcaster nigh-permanently. Mind Blast will stun (which is *not* the same as rendering helpless) a few opponents for a few rounds - powerful, sure, but not broken.

There is no reason why the default setting for psionics is to roll a d20 to set power DC's when magic is by default a 10. Psionics needs to be more consistent with magic.

Many, many people feel that psionics are already too close to magic and would like to see more differences.

For the love god Bruce, please make sure if you revise that book you compare the psionic powers with the power of magic. An easily obtainable power like Psionic Blast shouldn't be more powerful than 9th level wizard spells. I challenge you to name a 9th level wizard spell with as good an effect as Psionic Blast.

Wail of the Banshee - KILLS several opponents as opposed to stunning them. And psionics in general is quite a lot weaker than wizard spells - compare Whitefire to Fireball, for example.

Personally, I think Bruce had the right idea in Mindscapes - totally revamp psionic combat and turn the attack modes into powers instead.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Ok, i was a bit tongue-in-cheek the last time, and i think my point was missed, so i'll come right out and say it this time: 2e psionics were *not* broken, and were *not* a balance problem.

Uh huh. I took id insinuation, an attack mode with no pre-requisites except Contact (which was free to take). I could knock out a great wyrm elder dragon four times a day with a 60% success rate - at first level!. This is because few of my powers had saves and they ignored SR.

My DM had to rule huge swathes of creatures were immune to mind-control just to keep me in check!

I specifically avoided the obvious broken powers like stasis or invincible foes and I still broke the system.

Any system that lets you take high-level powers like phase at third level is going to be broken.

PS that description of disintegrate sounded like the most hated psionic power - psychofeedback. A huge PSP cost wasn't enough to balance disintegrate, and nor was a 5% death rate (lower, since you got a save with a +4 bonus).

 

[Celtavian]

Re

The "random DC" is already optional, or rather, there's an optional rule for making it 10+modifiers instead of d20+modifiers. Nothing stopping you from enacting that in your home game.

I feel 10+modifiers should be the standard for reasons of consistency.

In Mindscapes, by Bruce as well, Mind Blast is changed to only stun for 1d4 rounds instead

This should be implemented in the regular psionics handbook. The current version is far too powerful.

No, it isn't. Psionic Blast uses as many PPs as a 5th level power, and has the save DC of a 4th level power. And stunning people for a few rounds might be a pretty powerful effect, but it's not "more powerful than any single friggin wizard spell in the game". With 5th level spells (the equivalent to Mind Blast), the wizard can either kill hordes of wimps, absolutely take control of a single NPC, paralyze almost any opponent, or totally neutralize an opposing spellcaster nigh-permanently. Mind Blast will stun (which is *not* the same as rendering helpless) a few opponents for a few rounds - powerful, sure, but not broken.

In my experience, stunned is as good as dead. I have both used Psionic Blast on my party and had the party use it. Nearly every time I have allowed it, it has seriously interfered with several major combats reducing them to a whack fest for one party or the other until they come out of the stun effect.

The fact that you state a 5th level caster can only hold or paralyze a single target should be an indicator of why Psionic Blast is overpowered. Notice how only a single 9th level spell can affect multiple targets with a death effect, most other spells scale for a single large target or a group of much weaker targets. Not mind blast, if a group of low will save creatures attack, its lights out for them a good percentage of the time. I will not allow psionics until Psionic Blast is made less of a game breaker.

Please don't try to paint Psionic Blast as balanced. I had an 11th Psychic Warrior chain it until the enemy group was slobbering on themselves. He did this quite often. No wizard spell can stun that many creatures or require that many saves before 9th level save for Mass Charm and it has a hit dice cap.

It is overpowered for its level, availability and effect.

Many, many people feel that psionics are already too close to magic and would like to see more differences.

If they can't tell the difference between consistent in terms of the balance of power, then there isn't much I can say. I certainly don't need psionics to be like magic, but I also don't want it to be more powerful than magic.

Wail of the Banshee - KILLS several opponents as opposed to stunning them. And psionics in general is quite a lot weaker than wizard spells - compare Whitefire to Fireball, for example.

I stand corrected. Wail of the Banshee is a comparable 9th level spell. It saddens me that you had to compare Psionic Blast with one of the most powerful wizard spells in the game. A Psionicist or Psychic Warrior can acquire this power long before a wizard obtains Wail of the Banshee.

One last thing, there is no counter for Psionic Blast. In fact, non-psionics have a harder time saving against it than psionic folk. Wail of the Banshee can be counteracted by a 4th level spell.