D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Gammadoodler]

If they didn't include displays, then the also did not include the lack of displays. The proper response should then be, "Well, how do we balance it then?", rather than just assuming that there would be no balance, which is rather silly as WotC makes a lot of effort to keep the classes balanced.


As I told him, he is aware that the majority of us are advocating for balance, not for imbalance. Especially me as he has had that conversation with me multiple times. So when he jumped in with, "Let's look at the consequences of "no components" then, shall we?," he was aware that for the most part, those on my side aren't advocating for a lack of components with no balancing factor. For him to say that anyway was to deflect from the real discussion and change what the position of most on my side of things have been saying. Hence, Red Herring and Strawman

Had he been making a response based what he knew about the position of those of us who want psionics to have no components, he would have said something like, "The following story shows why psionics having no components needs to be balanced in some other way like people have suggested."


The displays are not once the spell is cast. "Displays" that happen after the spell is cast are called spell effects. Displays happen while the spell is being cast which alerts anyone who wishes to Counterspell. And as we(collectively) have said in other threads, you can quite easily balance the inability to stop them from casting through immobilization and silence, in other ways. It's not as if they can't be given slight disadvantages somewhere else to compensate.

Worth noting that this puts you in the 'psionics can be the same as spells' camp. I don't believe you've indicated otherwise, but it's worth noting as there are several camps with differing opinions on what the relationship to spells should be.

As it relates to the ability to implement other countermeasures, I'd agree that it's possible. Outside of counterspell though, which is only good for the 'psionic spells' camp, I haven't seen any proposed countermeasures (perhaps these have been sorted through elsewhere in other threads).

So, what is a fair price to still be able to cast spells after you've had your arms and legs severed?

 

[Maxperson]

Worth noting that this puts you in the 'psionics can be the same as spells' camp. I don't believe you've indicated otherwise, but it's worth noting as there are several camps with differing opinions on what the relationship to spells should be.

Yes, but most of the people in the other threads who have chimed in, even those who want them to not be the same as spells, have said that they would accept them being the same as spells if it came down to that being the difference between having or not having Psionics. Others have indicated that they would prefer they not be the same as spells, but still have displays, which can be done depending on how you design the psionics system.

3e is a good example of a system with displays and psionics as magic, that was done in a way that isn't the same as spells. While you had Charms Person and Monster, the magical spells, and had psionic Charm, psionic charm had variable power based on how many points you put into it. You could make it so that it did more than Charm Person, but less than Charm Monster.

As it relates to the ability to implement other countermeasures, I'd agree that it's possible. Outside of counterspell though, which is only good for the 'psionic spells' camp, I haven't seen any proposed countermeasures (perhaps these have been sorted through elsewhere in other threads).

Kryptonite, duh!

Seriously, though, it's not really about whether it can be countered by the highly situational binding of hands and mouth, like a Wizard. You can accept that Psions can't be stopped in that way and then balance them in other ways by say slightly weaker abilities or a few less spell slots.

So, what is a fair price to still be able to cast spells after you've had your arms and legs severed?

Since cutting off even a single limb takes DM fiat, a Sword of Sharpness and two consecutive natural 20's, or an artifact Vorpal Sword and one natural 20, I'm not terribly worried about it. I'd take a Ham and Cheese Baguette as the price for that one.

Much more common would be binding and gagging/silence, and those are still fairly rare. I described above what the cost for that minor advantage is.

The single biggest advantage is the ability to cast spells with no visible source, and displays counter that advantage nicely.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sure, which is probably why the swarm of Cranium Rats is CR 5 rather than the single Cranium Rate CR 0 or swarm of normal Rats at CR 1/4.


Or, you just make casting visible(and/or other display)

I.e. has components.

and/or reduce spell slots by a bit.

It would have to be a lot. Like make the psion a half caster. As you point out, it's enough to increase a monster by a good 5 challenge levels.

Or balance it in another easy manner.

I would say that balance is far from easy if you are trying to convert an existing class.

 

[Maxperson]

I.e. has components.

Apparently you don't know what components are. Components are V, S and M, which are not part of any display.

It would have to be a lot. Like make the psion a half caster. As you point out, it's enough to increase a monster by a good 5 challenge levels.[/qoute]

Why? A visible display is like 90% of the power differential. The remaining 10% is minor and can be balanced in the ways I mentioned.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Apparently you don't know what components are. Components are V, S and M, which are not part of any display.

Sure it's display - hence the Subtle Spell metamagic.

How you fluff the component is up to you - see ERFTLW p56. If it makes you feel better call it a "p" component, but it's still a component (and cranium rats are still exempt from needing it).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

As it relates to the ability to implement other countermeasures, I'd agree that it's possible. Outside of counterspell though, which is only good for the 'psionic spells' camp, I haven't seen any proposed countermeasures (perhaps these have been sorted through elsewhere in other threads).

Psionic spells would have the same requirements as any other spellcasting, including line of sight. A blindfold or hood would work fine.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure it's display - hence the Subtle Spell metamagic.

Your conflating somatic components with flashing lights, odors and other psionic displays which have nothing to do with that. In 5e the ONLY components are verbal, somatic(finger/hand movements) and material. Displays are none of those three.

How you fluff the component is up to you - see ERFTLW p56. If it makes you feel better call it a "p" component, but it's still a component (and cranium rats are still exempt from needing it).

Nothing on that page says that you can fluff explicit hand/finger movements as anything else. You can of course make a house rule that somatic components can be replaced with some sort of display, but that's only for your personal game. The Artificer has a Specific Rule that allows it to cast spells in a completely different way. It does not use somatic components differently. It avoids them altogether, using tools for the whole shabang.

By the way, the Artificer getting a unique casting mechanic just supports my side of things. There's precedent for giving Psions a completely new way to cast spells.

Here's the rule on what Somatic components are in 5e.

"SOMATIC (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."

As you can see, if it's not a gesture, it's not a somatic component. And displays are not gestures.

 

[Maxperson]

Psionic spells would have the same requirements as any other spellcasting, including line of sight. A blindfold or hood would work fine.

As would Incapacitated, such as by paralysis. Even though you'd think a Psion could still use powers with no verbal, somatic or material components, you do not get actions or reaction when Incapacitated.

Personally, I'd let it work anyway, just like I'd let a Sorcerer who used metamagic to get around those to still act. The rules don't account for every situation and I just don't see paralysis stopping those things. However, by RAW those things are stopped.

 

[glass]

But it does 100% fit into what they are, and what they can do. If I am fighting giants who can crush me with a single blow, (ie, I am a rat) I take full advantage of them not being able to reach me. Of my stealth, of the fact they aren't going to pay attention to a single rat in a dungeon, of living with normal stupid rats to hide my presence.

Cranium rats have enlarged exposed brains, that possibly glow. They are small so you might not spot them at all, but if you do there is no way you are going to dismiss them as just a normal rat. You absolutely are going to pay attention to them.

It would have to be a lot. Like make the psion a half caster. As you point out, it's enough to increase a monster by a good 5 challenge levels.

It looks like you are asserting that the difference in CR between a normal rat swarm and a cranium rat swarm is primarily due to the fact that thet latter's spells are subtle, rather than the fact that they have spells at all. Could you clarify because I have to hope that that was not what you were trying to say?

_
glass.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Your conflating somatic components with flashing lights, odors and other psionic displays which have nothing to do with that. In 5e the ONLY components are verbal, somatic(finger/hand movements) and material. Displays are none of those three.

The ONLY THING that matters is they indicate that a spell is being cast so someone can react to it. How it is fluffed is irrelevant.

Nothing on that page says that you can fluff explicit hand/finger movements as anything else. You can of course make a house rule that somatic components can be replaced with some sort of display, but that's only for your personal game. The Artificer has a Specific Rule that allows it to cast spells in a completely different way. It does not use somatic components differently. It avoids them altogether, using tools for the whole shabang.

No, it doesn't. Artificer spells follow exactly the same rules as any other spell. They still have V, S, M components, and the follow the same rules as anyone else - you can't cast a spell with a V component if you are silenced, you need a free hand or a focus for an S component, you need materials or a focus for M components.

It's only the fluff that is different - you V component is speaking a command word, you S component is pulling a leaver, your M component is making adjustments with a screwdriver.

The page I referenced is not a rule, it's a sidebox explaining about refluffing.

"SOMATIC (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."

As you can see, if it's not a gesture, it's not a somatic component. And displays are not gestures.

You remain incapable of distinguishing between fluff and a mechanics. A bard can cast a spell by playing a lute. Core rules. The S components are the bard's fingers moving on the lute. It's a display because other people can see the bard's fingers moving and know they are casting a spell (and identify what spell if their arcana skill is high enough).