Psionics Too Psi-Fi?

[ProfessorCirno]

I think you make a very good point. The D&D wizard, with his books and experiments, is a lot like a scientist, whereas the psionicist doesn't need books or objects or any kind of civilization.

You're going too far here. Prospero, from Shakespeare's 'The Tempest', is a book-learning sort of wizard. Atlantes, from medieval French romance, foretells the future with his Book of Fates.

I'm no Shakespearean expert, but the second example isn't a D&D wizard, it's someone who's using an artifact. He's not using written down formulae inside his book or waving around bat guano to create fireballs.

 

[Stoat]

I think you make a very good point. The D&D wizard, with his books and experiments, is a lot like a scientist, whereas the psionicist doesn't need books or objects or any kind of civilization.

I think this is a little less clear cut. "Experiment" in the context of D&D wizards usually means something less like "using the scientific method and a rigorous control group to test the validity of a hypothesis" and more "summons demons" or "stitches together corpses" D&D wizards look more to me like medieval alchemists than modern scientists.

On topic, I like to mix sci-fi with my D&D. I mostly don't like psionics for two reasons.

1. Historically, the mechanics are terrible and broken.

2. The wizard stole the psionicist's lunch money. Want to read and control minds? The wizard does that. Want to be clairvoyant? The wizard does that. Levitate? Wizard. Telekinesis? Wizard. Pyrokinesis? Fireball.

 

[Dausuul]

The big issue is that, mechanically speaking, Vancian is far more sci-fi then psionics have ever been.

I'm sorry, but if you think it's ok and not sci-fi to have psuedo scientists with books filled with formula who use experimentation to discover ways of altering physics...but it's totally sci-fi and fantasy to have someone who simply reaches into the world and changes it with his mind? You're wrong. Your opinion is bad.

<initial response self-censored>

The "experimental/formulaic wizard" echoes late medieval/Renaissance-era alchemists. So, no, it's not particularly sci-fi.

The specific detail of spell preparation is purely Jack Vance and Dying Earth--to the best of my knowledge, no one anywhere else used such a magic system ever, until Gygax and Arneson lifted it and made it the cornerstone of D&D spellcasting. Since Dying Earth is both sci-fi and fantasy, you could make a case for Vancian casting being either, neither, or both.

Finally, as I've said about fifteen times already in this thread (and most of my fellows in the "too psi-fi" contingent seem to agree), I have no problem with the damn mechanics! It's all a question of flavor. Take most of D&D's psi mechanics, reflavor them as magic, and I'm fine with them--in fact I'll probably take them in preference to Vancian casting, which I dislike for other reasons. But it's one thing to rename a single spell or race; it's quite another to make up new names for an entire class and all its associated mechanics and rules, and then try and get players to remember them.

 

[FireLance]

You know, I just had a sudden flash of insight why I don't really consider "psionic" to be a science fiction term. Essentially, I've never read any science fiction that used it. The closest term that I've encountered in science fiction is "mentalics" which was used in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.

In fact, the first time I encountered the term "psionics" was in the AD&D PHB. That is probably why, despite its actual origin, I consider it a neutral term and not one that is loaded with science fiction connotations like robot and alien.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

<initial response self-censored>

The "experimental/formulaic wizard" echoes late medieval/Renaissance-era alchemists. So, no, it's not particularly sci-fi.

But the psionics method of mind powers aren't sci-fi either.

Finally, as I've said about fifteen times already in this thread (and most of my fellows in the "too psi-fi" contingent seem to agree), I have no problem with the damn mechanics! It's all a question of flavor. Take most of D&D's psi mechanics, reflavor them as magic, and I'm fine with them--in fact I'll probably take them in preference to Vancian casting, which I dislike for other reasons. But it's one thing to rename a single spell or race; it's quite another to make up new names for an entire class and all its associated mechanics and rules, and then try and get players to remember them.

So...divine magic?

 

[Hussar]

I admit to being curious: apart from the name, what are the SF trappings of D&D psionics? The possibility of unlocking special powers through meditation and self-discipline may be an Eastern trope, but it's not a modern or futuristic one.

The only instance I can recall offhand of SF elements in D&D psionics were some mind flayer psionic circuitry in the 2e Illithiad supplement. However, I don't think anything similar has made an appearance in 3e and 4e.

Nope, for me, it's pretty much just the name.

Someone brought up Piers Anthony and the idea of hereditary magic. Got no problem with that either. Heck, David Eddings has that as well. "Magic in the Blood" is the cornerstone of LOTS of fantasy.

But, it has nothing to do with the specifics of the mechanics and solely to do with the name.

Well, that and the fact that for most of D&D, it was so poorly done. That doesn't help either.

 

[Arlough]

Well, I can't argue that psionic sounds too sci-fi to you.

I, fortunately, don't have any problem abstracting the power name out so it is nothing more than a reference, and then describing the effects in a flavor I prefer, but I can agree that it would be annoying having something that keeps breaking the immersion like that.

Kinda like a Star Wars movie with a cheap, Jewish merchant trying to screw over the protagonist. Or a race of giant reptile people called Dragonborn who's females have, for some reason, breasts.

Wait a minute....

 

[Hussar]

Well, I can't argue that psionic sounds too sci-fi to you.

I, fortunately, don't have any problem abstracting the power name out so it is nothing more than a reference, and then describing the effects in a flavor I prefer, but I can agree that it would be annoying having something that keeps breaking the immersion like that.

Kinda like a Star Wars movie with a cheap, Jewish merchant trying to screw over the protagonist. Or a race of giant reptile people called Dragonborn who's females have, for some reason, breasts.

Wait a minute....

Oh totally. Everyone's got their own hangups. Dragonborn and Warlords don't faze me in the slightest, but, I think there's been more than enough words spilled over them.

For me, there's really only two things that bug me in D&D games. Psionics and anachronistic sailing ships. Seas of Blood from S&S Press (a supplement for Scarred Lands) has a picture of an English Ship of the Line complete with gun ports as a Dwarven warship. Savage Tide AP mentions a sunken schooner in a lagoon - a schooner sailed commercially in the 20th century. Drives me batty.

And, yes, I know that it's 100% on me.