Flights of Fancy
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We will agree to disagree about that and drop it, please. Thanks.
D&D 5E (2024) Psionics: What Do You Want?
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Some. Some being a small portion. Not most. Not all.
And those people aren't buying new books, so their opinion and reasoning doesn't really "Show Up" to WotC. Nothing WotC makes, whether powers or spells, will appeal to them and cause them to purchase a new book.
So... Why care what they think?
This, though? This is counterintuitive to your argument.
Because they're only learning the Powers on their sheet as they level up. So it doesn't matter whether it's Spells or Class Features or Archetype Abilities or Psionic Powers.
In the end, it's all the same, to these "Some". They're concerned with what they can do and not much else. And that's fine. But it also isn't a reason not to have powers. It just means they'll only care about the ones they jot down.
No most.
WOTC says the majority of the surveys state the majority of 5e fans started with 5e.
The Pre3e fans mostly ditched it. And many 3e fans went to Pathfinder.
You still have to look at the powers list to choose your powers and thus you have to read them . A noticeable amount of people do not want to read and comprehend all that information.
Most started with 5e.
Some refuse to learn about new content.
And those people don't buy books. And thus WotC doesn't care what they think because they won't buy anything WotC puts out.
And that some is smaller than "Most" or "All".
The Pre3e fans mostly ditched 3e. And 4e. And 5e. And their opinions do not matter to WotC because they don't buy the 5e books WotC puts out.
And they are also irrelevant to a discussion about Psionics in 5e.
A noticeable amount of people didn't buy the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide or Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes or Tasha's Cauldron of Everything for similar reasons.
But enough did that each of those books, and more, have come out. So that "Noticeable" portion of the playerbase isn't stopping WotC from making new content they don't care about or want to learn, and thus they also don't matter in the question of whether the Psion or something marginally more complex is what drops because they don't want to buy the new books.
CreamCloud0
Hero
i think it's mostly already been said, power points, versatile uses of focused concepts, at-wills that can be boosted into stronger variants, pushing past 'safe limits',
while i am fully on the side that 'psionics shouldn't be spellcasting' i'm less opposed about leveraging the vast library of spells that already exist in 5e for the psion, i think the most important part is that it does not use the same structure as spellcasting, don't be afraid to tweak some properties of a spell to make it more apt as a psionic ability.
while i am fully on the side that 'psionics shouldn't be spellcasting' i'm less opposed about leveraging the vast library of spells that already exist in 5e for the psion, i think the most important part is that it does not use the same structure as spellcasting, don't be afraid to tweak some properties of a spell to make it more apt as a psionic ability.
Willie the Duck
Legend
I don't hate psionics as spellcasters. When we talk about spells (particularly 'spells' in the way that Book of Nine Swords maneuvers counted), we really just mean modular little packets of exception-based rules text that get put forth when a certain character does something, and that's pretty hard to escape. I don't even mind if they have different level slots prepared per long rest instead of spell points (how much spell points make things different depends on the individual implementation).
What I do care about is having different classes feel different (else why have them?). That can play out in the selection of the spells (or 'spells'), how they are acquired/used, or in the non-spell qualities the class also possess. Say what you will about the TSR cleric being a heal-battery for the rest of the party, it absolutely had a reason to be played instead of a magic user. Sure the 5e(2014) Moon Druid was a weird bag-of-hp tank that fluctuated in relative power across levels, but you did not play them the same as a cleric or wizard or warlock (or other druids). 5e Warlocks - man they are a dog's breakfast of stuff, but they feel definitively different even though they are mostly still the same spells (in a way that, say, sorcerers struggle to match).
Incenjucar
Legend
From a profit perspective, WotC really needs for there to be a popular cartoon or YA series featuring psychic powers, and to borrow from that.
A Fighter, a Rogue, a Monk, and a Barbarian are all Martial characters.
They move and they hit things. That's their baseline mechanic. But HOW they move and hit things tells a story that gets you invested into a specific character fantasy. Rogues do a lot more moving and ranged attacking because the damage dropoff for increased survivability is made up for with Sneak Attack damage. Barbarians wear light or no armor and wade into melee with big hit dice while raging to take half damage to offset the risks while landing a few BIG HITS. Fighters and monks both attack many times in a round, though the monk does it while also enjoying high movement and suffering a lower amount of HP and Armor options.
A Psion, a Sorcerer, and a Wizard all cast spells. And the vast majority of the spells they cast are exactly the same spells. (Especially since all things being equal some spells are more effective than others)
So how do they do it differently?
Wizards get the ability to recover spell slots at level 1! They also learn to Memorize a spell at level 5 to swap out one prepared spell every short rest. Other than that they just cast the spells.
Sorcerers can 'unleash their magic' for 1 minute to increase their spell save DC by 1 and gain advantage on spell attack rolls twice per long rest. Then at level 2 they can recover spell slots for Sorcery Points. And then they get Metamagic options. At level 5 they get to recover half their sorcerer level in sorcery points.
Psions do it more Subtly. And they get a wholly separate ability to use Energy Dice to do variable-range telepathy for a minute or fling an enemy a variable distance. This is not spellcasting, per-se, but it's something. And twice per long rest they can enter a 1 minute long state where they ignore psychic resistance (or gain it) and reroll dice by expending energy dice.
Sorcerers and Psions both get "Rage" for spellcasting, but much weaker and less built into the class than a Barbarian's Rage is. And then the ability to spend their sorcery points or energy dice on something that changes what their spells do... in practically the same ways.
All three have d6 hit dice, light or no armor, minimal weapon proficiencies, the same movement, the same positioning requirements... They're all so incredibly similar that there's very little that distinguishes them from one another in actual gameplay.
A Sorcerer, a Wizard, and a Psion in the same situation are probably going to move the same way and cast the same spell, or very similar spells, and end their turn. MAYBE they'll use an archetype ability or something as a bonus action for zest... but it's pretty much going to be the same.
There's not a lot of granularity between them because of how much focus is put onto the spells, themselves. Like if Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and Monk were all defined not by class ability, but by which weapons they carried, and they all pretty much carried the same weapon options.
They move and they hit things. That's their baseline mechanic. But HOW they move and hit things tells a story that gets you invested into a specific character fantasy. Rogues do a lot more moving and ranged attacking because the damage dropoff for increased survivability is made up for with Sneak Attack damage. Barbarians wear light or no armor and wade into melee with big hit dice while raging to take half damage to offset the risks while landing a few BIG HITS. Fighters and monks both attack many times in a round, though the monk does it while also enjoying high movement and suffering a lower amount of HP and Armor options.
A Psion, a Sorcerer, and a Wizard all cast spells. And the vast majority of the spells they cast are exactly the same spells. (Especially since all things being equal some spells are more effective than others)
So how do they do it differently?
Wizards get the ability to recover spell slots at level 1! They also learn to Memorize a spell at level 5 to swap out one prepared spell every short rest. Other than that they just cast the spells.
Sorcerers can 'unleash their magic' for 1 minute to increase their spell save DC by 1 and gain advantage on spell attack rolls twice per long rest. Then at level 2 they can recover spell slots for Sorcery Points. And then they get Metamagic options. At level 5 they get to recover half their sorcerer level in sorcery points.
Psions do it more Subtly. And they get a wholly separate ability to use Energy Dice to do variable-range telepathy for a minute or fling an enemy a variable distance. This is not spellcasting, per-se, but it's something. And twice per long rest they can enter a 1 minute long state where they ignore psychic resistance (or gain it) and reroll dice by expending energy dice.
Sorcerers and Psions both get "Rage" for spellcasting, but much weaker and less built into the class than a Barbarian's Rage is. And then the ability to spend their sorcery points or energy dice on something that changes what their spells do... in practically the same ways.
All three have d6 hit dice, light or no armor, minimal weapon proficiencies, the same movement, the same positioning requirements... They're all so incredibly similar that there's very little that distinguishes them from one another in actual gameplay.
A Sorcerer, a Wizard, and a Psion in the same situation are probably going to move the same way and cast the same spell, or very similar spells, and end their turn. MAYBE they'll use an archetype ability or something as a bonus action for zest... but it's pretty much going to be the same.
There's not a lot of granularity between them because of how much focus is put onto the spells, themselves. Like if Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and Monk were all defined not by class ability, but by which weapons they carried, and they all pretty much carried the same weapon options.
mellored
Legend
Different from yet another spell caster.
Specifically, some kind cantrip + augmen + Points. Closer to a ranged Monk than anything else.
Mind Blast
Make a ranged attack within 30', you deal 1d8+Int Psychic damage. Increasing to 4d8+Int.
You can reduce the damage by 1 die size to increase the range to 60', or 2 die sizes for 90'.
Augment:
As a bonus action, you can spend a point to Augment your Psionic attacks.
Mind Burst
1 point to turn Mind Blast into a 10' radius. Use the same attack roll against each target.
Mind Ray
1 point, turn Mind Blast into an Line. Use the same attack roll against each target.
Pyrokinetic
Your Mind Blast is fire damage
Etc...
Specifically, some kind cantrip + augmen + Points. Closer to a ranged Monk than anything else.
Mind Blast
Make a ranged attack within 30', you deal 1d8+Int Psychic damage. Increasing to 4d8+Int.
You can reduce the damage by 1 die size to increase the range to 60', or 2 die sizes for 90'.
Augment:
As a bonus action, you can spend a point to Augment your Psionic attacks.
Mind Burst
1 point to turn Mind Blast into a 10' radius. Use the same attack roll against each target.
Mind Ray
1 point, turn Mind Blast into an Line. Use the same attack roll against each target.
Pyrokinetic
Your Mind Blast is fire damage
Etc...
Remathilis
Legend
Isn't that meta magic and sorcery points?
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