Psychopacifist clerics

Sorry to be melodramatic. The pacifist healic build just rubs me the wrong way.
You know, the build itself is fine. The powers are often on the strong side, even without damage, especially in a large party, and it gives you a full hybrid leader/controller feel. However the feat is the problem , as it's where the stupid restriction comes from and it usually just means serious overhealing. I've, likewise, discouraged the interested player in my game from taking it...

(Astral Seal I only have a problem with when stupid amounts of +healing items/feats are involved. If I were to houserule anything, I'd make all the various piled on bonuses only work when you spend a surge)
 

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Well, yes, it's actually the combination of crazy amounts of untyped bonuses on top of astral heal combined with the hindrance of pacifist healer encouraging its overuse that I dislike. Take away any one of these elements, and I probably would have less of a problem with it, though I don't see myself ever building a character with the feat as long as that hindrance is attached to it.

I'm in general unhappy about all the surgeless and bonus healing stuff. We've got a surge mechanic that serves for healing. You can play a game with no leader if you want. At the end of each fight, you use your surges to heal up, and you move on. Or with a leader you get two words of some sort and possibly some more encounter powers that heal via triggering surges, or daily powers that might heal without a surge. I kind of wish they had left that part of the game alone. Now that the tools are there for at-will surgeless healing (and one surge healing over half your hit points), people seem to have a mistaken expectation that this tool is a must have and is the best thing since sliced bread.
 

And those people would be wrong.
You gotta defeat your enemies, and to that end, healing is a mechanism that delays your own defeat until you can win.

If you can't win without healing, you're on the brink of losing.

Making a character better at delaying defeat at the cost of damage isn't just against the spirit of 4e ... which tried to do away with the character that stands around and heals people.
Everyone is meant to contribute!
Healers heal while they contribute!
That means healing instead of dealing damage is failing at win.
 

The part that says 'never do harm to anyone.'

There is no such part. There are anti-abortion modern versions of it penned by certain doctors that indicate this, but the vast majority of versions do not from ancient times till now.

No, there isn't, and the reason there isn't a paradox here is the same as why there isn't one with a Pacifist Cleric.

The fallacies that you make is that a field medic who makes a modern oath (which does not actually include "never do harm to anyone" fallacy 1) does not have a problem with war (fallacy 2), hence, violence is acceptable to pacifists (fallacy 3). This is a totally illogical construct.

The definition of a pacifist is "opposed to violence".

The definition of a D&D adventurer is "violence".

As a moral upstanding member of your community, do you hang out with rapists and murderers, and watch as they perform their activities? Presumbably no. Neither would a pacifist ever hang out with adventurers. He might know some, but he wouldn't condone their actions, nor would he adventure with them.

It's amazing how people can rationalize the exact opposite of the definition of a word.
 

There is no such part. There are anti-abortion modern versions of it penned by certain doctors that indicate this, but the vast majority of versions do not from ancient times till now.

Funny, I quoted that from a translation of ancient greek.

But hey, define my position for me some more.

The fallacies that you make is that a field medic who makes a modern oath (which does not actually include "never do harm to anyone" fallacy 1) does not have a problem with war (fallacy 2), hence, violence is acceptable to pacifists (fallacy 3). This is a totally illogical construct.

No, my argument is that if a doctor who takes a vow to mitigate harm to others and do no harm himself can enter battle, than a cleric who takes a similiar vow can similiarly enter battle.

Your fallacy, is that a cleric who goes adventuring takes a vow of complete non-violence. However, there are forms of pacifism that are pragmatic, and recognize that some measure of violence is acceptable in the defense of self or others from worse violence. Some also believe that violence is a personal moral choice, or that it is pragmatically better than violence in that it does not cost lives or resources.

And some also believe that while violence is necessary, they themselves do not have the will to carry that violence out.

And still others are simply those that are not trained in arts of violence, but excel at arts of healing.

And every single one of these situations can be covered by the Pacifist Healer feat.

The definition of a pacifist is "opposed to violence".

The definition of a D&D adventurer is "violence".

See above. 'Pacifism' isn't a single absolute state of morality. In fact, part of pacifism is accepting that absolutes are dangerous to hold and can lead to violence through non-comprimise.

As a moral upstanding member of your community, do you hang out with rapists and murderers, and watch as they perform their activities?

Well, that would be because I am anti-rape and anti-murder. Pacifism, as noted above, does not mean anti-violence, but covers pragmatic opposition to violence as a means to an end.

I'm opposed to violence, but not opposed to violently opposing a rapist to prevent him from doing his work. It's not as simple as 'Fighting is always bad.'

Presumbably no. Neither would a pacifist ever hang out with adventurers. He might know some, but he wouldn't condone their actions, nor would he adventure with them.

It depends on what sort of pacifist there is. Your sort of pacifist wouldn't ever adventure. And thus would never be a PC. And thus would never have this fert. Other pacifists' mileage may vary.

It's amazing how people can rationalize the exact opposite of the definition of a word.

It's amazing how people can make a word mean something more precise than it actually is meant to entail.
 

That's not what pacifism means ... a pacifist is opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes.
Though there's some correlation, that does not automatically follow that they're opposed to violence in general.

There have been plenty of pacifists that support coporal punishment, for instance.
There have also been pacifists that support capital punishment ... 'cos the trial settles the dispute ... the sentence occurs afterwards.

Finally, while it almost certainly never occurs, a pacifist is not necessarily opposed to violence for recreational purposes.
Even fatal bloodsport.
 

Well, yes, it's actually the combination of crazy amounts of untyped bonuses on top of astral heal combined with the hindrance of pacifist healer encouraging its overuse that I dislike. Take away any one of these elements, and I probably would have less of a problem with it, though I don't see myself ever building a character with the feat as long as that hindrance is attached to it.

I'm in general unhappy about all the surgeless and bonus healing stuff. We've got a surge mechanic that serves for healing. You can play a game with no leader if you want. At the end of each fight, you use your surges to heal up, and you move on. Or with a leader you get two words of some sort and possibly some more encounter powers that heal via triggering surges, or daily powers that might heal without a surge. I kind of wish they had left that part of the game alone. Now that the tools are there for at-will surgeless healing (and one surge healing over half your hit points), people seem to have a mistaken expectation that this tool is a must have and is the best thing since sliced bread.

I agree with you Mengu. While I'm all for a greater variety of spells that can be used without needing to target an enemy to activate them the whole surgeless aspect of the stuff in DP is disturbing. I think its a bad design decision. Still, that is rather independent of the Pacifist Healer feat and the other no-hit powers. Astral Seal and Recovery Strike for sure are powers that should NOT exist at all. They utterly should not exist as at-wills. They're basically not only returning the game to older editions model of healing, they're not even putting a daily limit on how much of it you can get. Now its just a race between the monsters and the cleric to see if they can actually do damage fast enough to even scratch the party. Surges become relatively meaningless.
 

Hippocrates said:
I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

Just thought I'd post this here given that lots of people are mentioning the Hippocratic oath. Keep in mind that nobody actually swears this oath these days, and that it is pretty much entirely of historic interest only.
 

That's not what pacifism means ... a pacifist is opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes.

Ok. I can live with that definition. A pacifist is opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes. Adventurers use violence as a means of settling disputes. It still seems like a pacifist would never join an adventuring group.


Course, Wiki has a slightly more pacifistic definition than what you had.
 

But, it's cool when you vaporize 537 creatures in a murderous orgy of divine fire. They weren't bloodied because minions don't get bloodied, so no foul. Please explain that.

Because adjusting the feat to address minions was too difficult for the designers to do without making it a lot more complex than it currently is.

The problem is that if the feat similarly stops you from hurting minions or targeting them, it requires the 'minion' property to be always visible to all players, which is generally a DMs call whether it is or not.

If you are a DM and this still really, really bothers you, I recommend creating some sort of house rule addition to the feat: "If you hit a minion with a divine attack power that deals damage, you can choose to reduce the damage to 0 in order to instead have the minion become dazed until the end of your next turn. If you instead choose to have it deal damage and kill the minion, you are stunned until the end of your next turn." Or something like that.

If you are a player, you can instead just not target minions (if they are obvious on sight), or ask your DM to use the above rule. Or something like that.

I really don't think this is that big a problem from a flavor perspective.
 

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