Pathfinder 1E Publishers of D&D: from past to future. Paizo and Wotc.

[prosfilaes]

Do we get this worked up about Fruity Pebbles? No. And that's all D&D is. It's Fruity Pebbles.

But it's not. I've bought more GURPS 4e then all but maybe a thousand people. Industries that sell to a few thousand people work differently then industries that sell to a few million. It's more like airplanes then cereal; and I bet Boeing, who has built 1,400 747s over the lifetime of the model, has long talks with each customer about what they want to see in their planes.

Not only that, it's different from the other side. A box of cereal is an ephemeral thing; I open it, I eat it, and it's gone. I then go to the store, and I can buy any cereal I want, and it will go well with any milk I buy and the spoons and bowls I already own. RPGs aren't like that; if you're doing more than reading them, all but the shortest adventure will last longer than a box of cereal. Once you've bought ten books at $30 a piece, that's $300 you've invested; if you play PF, you can't buy a 4E book and expect it to work with what you've got, and vice versa, and changing systems implies at least a $40 investment, without figuring in buying new splat books or adventures. It's like gaming systems or OSs, both of which very heated flame wars.

And like gaming systems or OSs, major changes are dangerous for the company. Done right, they can bring in big money; done wrong, you can alienate a lot of your audience. You'll note that most OSs and gaming systems are providing complete compatibility with previous games and programs, something gaming companies can't (and depending on the business model, won't) provide.

 

[xechnao]

...

Good post.

 

[Henry]

So long as product is being produced that is worth being bought... it doesn't matter who does it, where they do it, why they do it, or how it's done.

Here's the sticking point... making D&D collectible-element focused, making it tournament-only, neither of those I consider "worth being purchased."

Do we get this worked up about Fruity Pebbles? No. And that's all D&D is. It's Fruity Pebbles. So long as I can buy myself Fruity Pebbles when I'm in the mood for some Fruity Pebbles... then the company who makes Fruity Pebbles has done its job.

And if fruity pebbles flavor changed to wheat grass, olive, and feta-cheese flavored?

I agree, getting two worked up over the exact form of D&D as an RPG is non-productive, but to say "as long as they turn out product" is being too simplistic. They need to respond to what the majority of a customer base wants. (Not even their existing customer base -- a customer base sufficient to engender sales.) But speaking as one-six-millionth (or whatever the nunmber) of the current customer base, there are certain behaviors that keep me from consuming -- and I haven't "consumed" from WotC in exactly a year this November, because of their poor customer service, their locking up the mechanical IP, and even pulling the only two products I was interested in from the schedule early this year!

If there's one thing that defines WotC's course for me, it'll be being more responsive to their customer base, and finding some way to be more nimble and able to respond to market demands -- as it is, they're so large they have to respond to the demands of present market 12 months prior! In the modern day and age that's too problematic to drive business effectively. I'll give Mike mearls credit: He's been working on this very thing since taking Slavicsek's post, and at Gencon admitting the company's prior failures to respond in such way. I'm enthused to see what results in the next 6 months -- It'll be that long before we see any change I think.

 

[DEFCON 1]

And if fruity pebbles flavor changed to wheat grass, olive, and feta-cheese flavored?

Then it's no longer worth being purchased.

There's two separate points here that my post was meant to illustrate. The original post was about WotC's duties and responsibilities as the publisher of Dungeons & Dragons. And my contention is that their duties and responsibilities are to one thing, and one thing only-- producing a product that people will pay money for (with all the details that involves, like making the product fun to play etc.) They do that, and they bring money into the company... which then allows them to pay their workers so that they can produce more stuff for people to buy.

But within threads like this, invariably people bring up completely separate things... like making sure the people involved are being true to the "spirit" of the D&D game by doing X, Y or Z (whatever list of things they feel makes the game 'D&D' to them). Or the company being really strong and emphatic communicators so that the hardcore playerbase gets to feel like they can speak out on their opinions and those opinions will not only be heard, but that the course of the company will actually change based upon their whims.

It has always been very difficult for us here on ENWorld to accept that what we feel about the game is not only NOT what the game is about, nor is what is best (because quite frankly every single opinion any of us has, has an exact 180 degree different opinion by someone else here, so that there's NO consensus on anything that WotC could actually take from us). But we still keep trying to either prop WotC up or tear them down... as though they are doing God's (or the Devil's) work. When in actuality, all they are doing is producing product. Product which is no more or no less important than anything else you might buy... Fruity Pebbles or a Ford Mustang.

 

[ahayford]

The question is, how can a RPG company continue to be profitable once they cover all the bases so to speak without releasing a new edition? I had thought Paizo had hit the nail on the head with their Adventure Paths....But the point about having 10 years of campaign material is a good one. I guess the key here is to keep things interesting. Release different genre's of campaign that appeal to different people....And failing that, release a new campaign setting with a different look and feel.

Other then that, I'm not sure. Rules bloat is definitely a problem games have suffered from in the past. You really only need so many classes/powers before it starts getting silly and hard to keep track of. What type of things should an RPG company be trying to release to support their game that doesn't cause bloat of one kind or another?

 

[Dausuul]

It has always been very difficult for us here on ENWorld to accept that what we feel about the game is not only NOT what the game is about, nor is what is best (because quite frankly every single opinion any of us has, has an exact 180 degree different opinion by someone else here, so that there's NO consensus on anything that WotC could actually take from us). But we still keep trying to either prop WotC up or tear them down... as though they are doing God's (or the Devil's) work. When in actuality, all they are doing is producing product. Product which is no more or no less important than anything else you might buy... Fruity Pebbles or a Ford Mustang.

Except that we're dealing with a market so small, and of which D&D commands such a huge share, that WotC's decisions have ramifications beyond their own bottom line. If Fruity Pebbles loses popularity and gets canceled, it doesn't hurt Rice Krispies. If D&D got canceled, it would be a heavy hit to all the other RPGs that draw their player pool from those who came in through D&D. Is Paizo ready to step into WotC's shoes if the giant falls? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm sure they would try, but those are some very big shoes.

Moreover, the very nature of RPGs is such that players get deeply and emotionally invested in them. I think D&D has done best when its publisher recognizes the existence of that investment--that D&D isn't just a cereal brand. There's a community aspect to this game, and supporting that community is an important part of what WotC does. It isn't just a matter of making a product and putting it out there.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Gary Gygax stressed the need of a unified standard, so that the player base could grow in numbers. D&D's players would transcend from their houserules to the quality products of a publishing house. But in the age of internet and free online applications, is this still necessary and/or feasible?

I think Gary was mistaken about the importance of a unified standard set of D&D rules. That might be good for tournaments, and it might be good for the company selling the game, but I don't think it's critical for the game or the hobby.

Does D&D playtesting and editing need a publisher like Paizo or Wotc?

I can definitely say that *I* don't need a publisher like Paizo or WotC. I haven't bought anything from either of them in years, and I'm playing D&D just fine. Paizo and WotC are irrelevant to my D&D gaming, and have been for quite a while.

 

[JeffB]

At the time AD&D was being written Gary felt strongly about unification.

Over the years he saw how much trouble it actually was/had become- in his later years he preferred to use/play his original game system (the LBBs) as well as his other systems LA He discussed it here as well as on Dragonsfoot, IIRC.

IOW- he felt it was the right thing at the time, but experience changed his mind.

 

[xechnao]

When in actuality, all they are doing is producing product. Product which is no more or no less important than anything else you might buy... Fruity Pebbles or a Ford Mustang.

Yeah, but what you say here is kind of...redundant? Nobody believes that Wotc is supposed to not produce product.
The question is if there is this kind of product they can produce that enough people will buy it.

 

[prosfilaes]

Or the company being really strong and emphatic communicators so that the hardcore playerbase gets to feel like they can speak out on their opinions and those opinions will not only be heard, but that the course of the company will actually change based upon their whims.

Strong companies listen to their consumers. Strong companies with big hard-core player bases leverage that to their advantage.

Product which is no more or no less important than anything else you might buy... Fruity Pebbles or a Ford Mustang.

Huh. And I thought that nobody just went to their supermarket and picked up a Ford Mustang as an impulse buy.

Again, Fruity Pebbles is a terribly unimportant buy. You buy it, and you're stuck with it for maybe a week. If you don't like it, you can throw it away and you're only out $3. If they stop producing it, you can pick from a number of similar overly sweetened cereals.

PF or 4e is about $70 for the basic books, with a complete set of main books running up to several hundred dollars. If you're running it, it has quite an effect on what you'll be doing every week, and it will define what material you can easily use with your game and what's not so easy. If you're looking for a game, what game you play may end up defining who you play with. If they stop producing it, you have a tough choice of writing off your existing investment in books and going forward to the new edition or staying with an edition that will have no more material written for it.

A car does not have the network effects of a game, or the cumulative effects, but is way more expensive and has way more concrete effects on your life. A car probably doesn't usually get the clan effects an RPG does because the type of car a friend drives has no effect, unlike the RPG they play, nor does it have dramatic effects on what car you can buy next, but it really is a more important purchasing decision than an RPG. Either of them stomp the Fruity Pebbles into the ground.