Publishers Opinion Of PCGen

[Leopold]

1) There is no human readability requirement in the OGL. The FAQ mentions human readability, but that is not legally binding. The requirement is to clearly mark the OGC portions as OGC. So, as long as that is done your Ok.

No WOTC clearly stated that all software data files MUST be human readable format for OGL compliance. Where do you get your defination from that? I know we have gone round and round with WOTC and this point has NEVER changed.

5) It is unclear how PCGen thinks its legal. This is because:
a) there is an open letter to all d20 publishers on the main page. This suggests they are a d20 product.

I did this eons ago, it was merely a way to get PCGen's name out to the publishers and get their response. It in no way shape or form implies legality on any part.

b) No d20 logo on the program and no OGL included.

At the time of this posting we have included the OGL licensing agreement with PCGen. Everytime you launch the application you will see the licensing agreement.

c) Combining points a) and b) I had come to the conclusion that PCGen was trying to get special permission from all publishers (should be copyright holders) to include their material without the OGL. There have also been several posts where people have said that PCGen is legal because they have the permission of all the publishers that they use. However, I have been told this is incorrect.

since before Gencon we had been asking publishers to include their OGC and PI material. Since you need permission to include PI material thereby we had to get writen and/or verbal permission from publishers to include said works. If not we were liable for all sorts of nasty legal things.

d) From some comments on this thread it seams that PCGen was trying to use fair use copyright rules and that game mechanics are not copyrightable.

game mechanics not copyrightable? See WOTC i am sure they will set you straight.

If you are going to say you are legal it is my opinion that you should explain how you are legal.

that letter was written last january and has probably been updated. I sent out one version of that then to the old ENWorld boards and got a unanimous approval from publishers. It in no way shape or form implies legality. It was a simple Press Release similar to what publishers do to get out word of their product.

 

[Leopold]

Problems I see with PCGen:
It can't be a d20 product simply from the clause excluding any character generation.
It's in violation of the trademarks on Star Wars, Wheel of Time, and Call of Cthulhu just to name a few. Even if WotC could give permission to use these, which I'm fairly sure they can't, the PCGen folks said themselves they only established dialog with WotC at GenCon.
I'm sure there are several other problems with it. Yuck.

No there are limits to what you can and cannot do with PC Generation.One thing is you can NOT have random attribute and/or HP generation that is completely forbidden by WOTC and that comes from the top.

We have not included any of Star Wars, Wheel of Time, CoC, or any other work which requires a seperate license to be obtained for us to include the work since GenCon.

WOTC licensed out Star Wars from Lucasfilm. We in turn in order to include said material must contact Lucasfilm and get their permsission as well.

Is it messy, yes, can it get resolved ::shrug:: who knows. Only patience, perserveerence, and time will tell.

 

[Leopold]

As I am not a representitive in any way of PCGen this is a compleately unofficial anouncement. As of last night PCGen released version 3.1.0 which they claim should now be 100% d20/OGL compliant. They have made all changes asked for by WotC and have submitted it to them for thier approval. I'm sure that we will hear more officially from Mynex or Leopold about this at the appropriate time.

It was released last night rather late, let me copy a bit of what Bryan said therin:

What an eventful 2 weeks since our last release!
This release is being sent to Wotc for their
evaluation to determine if the data is indeed
OGL compliant, and the application is D20 compliant.
We've been in constant contact with them and we
believe that we're there. We don't know how long
it will take Wotc to make their determination, but
we'll keep you posted with any developments. Once
we are certified as OGL/D20 compliant, we will
begin negotiations for permission on their non-SRD
material. We'll keep you all posted on how that
proceeds as well.

Why have we become OGL and D20 compliant? Those of
you who have been with us for a while know that we've
been investigating and working on becoming OGL
compliant for over a year now. We were actually
quite close to being done with that, but there were
a number of reasons why we didn't. Once Wotc told
us that if we became OGL and D20 compliant they
would consider giving us permission for all their
non-SRD material, it became a no-brainer. The
OGL compliance was quite simple - the changes required
for the D20 compliance were a bit stickier, and those
drove the main changes you will notice in this release.
D20 compliance means we can no longer randomly
generate stats or hit points, this is considered
'interactive'. To compensate for this we've made the
purchase mode much more flexible - you can specify
the cost of stats all the way down to 0 and as high
as you want. We'll make it easier for you to just
type your stats in as well. That way you can use
your favorite die roller (use actual dice or one of
the billions of die rollers on the internet) and copy
and paste the result it. You'll also notice the
OGL license comes up - section 15 at the bottom is
dynamically generated based upon the sources in
pcgen's data directory.

so there you have it. Pending WOTC's final writeoff on the files and code we will be both OGL/D20 compliant and legal. Not much more one can say about that.

 

[smetzger]

No WOTC clearly stated that all software data files MUST be human readable format for OGL compliance. Where do you get your defination from that? I know we have gone round and round with WOTC and this point has NEVER changed.

I know what WOTC says. However, I have been unable to find where it mentions this in either the OGL or d20 license. Which point number under OGL or d20 states this? Note that pretty much any electronic file is not human readable. Even an ASCII file requires the use of a computer to 'decode' the text. Certainly a PDF is a binary file which requires a special reader to 'decode' and let a human read the text.

Another thing on the random stuff. First that only applies to d20. Its Interactive Game which is dissallowed. Its defined as:
· "Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users. I do not think that any part of D&D character generation has a "...success or failure...". For example, the original Traveller rules had a success or failure in character generation because you could die in character generation.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is game terms. Game terms such as AC, Alignment, feat, etc are usually essential to a character generator. So, unless you want parts of your screens to be OGC you will need to put these in a separate file and have your program read these labels from that file.

You are more than welcome to place the additional restrictions of Human Readable and no random on PCGen, but I don't think its necessary to be OGL/d20 compliant. And if WOTC says you need to do this in order to get permission to use their non OGC material than so be it.

I'll take a look at 3.1.
d20 and OGL compliance looks good to me. I can't check to see if any IP was inadvertantly included. But it looks like you are at least as compliant as a good part of the print publishers.

 

[Arnix]

OK, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

2 points here.

1) I have read extensively from legal sides on the use of GPL. GPL is what OGL was derived from. As such, I assume that it stands on the same legal grounds. Based on that assumption, I will state my thoughts.

GPL is legally untested. By this, I mean that it has NOT had a final ruling through the courts. The GPL community (read about it if you dispute this) debates whether GPL is even legally binding. The only current test case was MySQL vs NuSphere. Both sides made an agreement based on the judges "ruling" and neither apealed the decision. As many of you know, a ruling by a judge is not final until it is tested by appealete court. Yes my spelling is terrible.

Can PCGen or any other 3rd party independent software group afford to legally test the OGL? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just follow the OGL?


2) A a written work, even OGL, if you follow copyright laws, you may use OGL content within the COPYRIGHT laws. OGL is a subset of copyright. If I write a paper, I can quote OGL content to my legal heart's content, so long as I do all the proper citing and am not plagerising. I am not bound by the OGL for my work. I am bound by copyright. I do not have to attach a copy of the OGL license.

Now will anyone want to test either of the arguments in court? Could they afford to?

It doesn't matter who is right, it matters who can afford the long fight.

Arnix (tm)

 

[Orcus]

OK, maybe I am confused.

I went to the PCGen page and found the same blurb up front:

What is PCGen?

PCGen is a character generator and maintenance program aimed at supporting any and all d20 roleplaying games - most notably Dungeons and Dragons (3rd Ed., ® Wizards of the Coast), Star Wars (® Lucasfilm Ltd.) and an assortment of others. It can help you quickly create a new character or convert old ones, and it has the ability to generate character sheets and even party sheets through the use of templates (a variety of html templates are provided).

This is on the page that allows download of the current (allegedly compliant) software.

Did I go to the wrong page?

If not, this is a big problem. You cant mention "Dungeons and Dragons" or "Star Wars" in promoting the product if it is OGL/d20 compliant, which you are claiming it is.

Have I missed something? I mean, this is a no brainer.

Please tell me this is not the right page. Because if this is the right page then your compliance is all screwed up. Read the licenses for goodness sake! I really hope I am missing something.

Clark

 

[smetzger]

Yuck, just thought of something that PCGen may have to address. Since you are releasing the source code, you may be in violation of the OGL if you have variable names or comments in the source code that are OGC elements. Since your using GNU and OGL doesn't mix with any other licenses then you would need to change all your variable names and comments. This is really splitting hairs though and I doubt anyone would hold your feet to the fire over this, especially if you have added prefixes to your variable names in any way.

*:> Scott

 

[Pyske]

A quick summary of the arguments on copyright and mechanics as I understand them (yeah, IANAL):

+ Mechanics, as with almost anything written, are most definitely copyright protected.
+ That copyright means that you can't simply take the write-up of the mechanics and re-use it (barring fair use exceptions).
+ So long as you can re-write the mechanics description substantially enough to avoid being a "derivative work", the copyright does NOT prevent you from using mechanics someone else thought up. The copyright protects the text, not the process.
+ Whether it is possible to avoid being a derivative work when re-writing mechanics is debatable by far better legal minds than mine.
+ If you really want to protect the process represented by your mechanics, you need a patent. This may or may not be possible to get: another question I leave to leagal minds to debate.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

 

[Orcus]

To follow up on my comment that PCGen, if they are in fact attempting to be d20 compliant, is in violation of the license, here is some stuff from the license:

From the d20 License

THE D20 SYSTEM® LICENSE VERSION 3.0

By downloading the enclosed graphic files and/or by returning the Confirmation Card as presented in the file "card.pdf," the Licensee ("You") accept to be bound by the following terms and conditions:

…

2. License to use
You are hereby granted the non-transferable, non-exclusive, royalty-free license to use the D20 System trademark logos, the D20 System trademark, and certain other trademarks and copyrights owned by Wizards of the Coast in accordance with the conditions specified in The Official Wizards of the Coast D20 System Trademark Logo Guide version 2.0. (the "Licensed Articles")

From the d20 STL Guide:

Rights Licensed:

This guide provides guidelines and instructions for the use of the following copyrights and/or trademarks, which are and shall remain the sole property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

· The D20 System Trademark logo
· The trademark "D20 System"
· Dungeons & Dragons
· The Dungeons & Dragons logo
· Wizards of the Coast

By accepting the terms of the License and this Guide, you agree not to contest Wizards of the Coast's ownership of the Licensed Articles. You further agree and accept that the above enumerated Licensed Articles constitute Product Identity as that term is defined in the Open Gaming License version 1.0a, incorporated herein by reference thereto.

The use of any other company's trademark or copyright in this guide is not intended as a challenge to the ownership of those trademarks or copyrights.

Trademark Use in Marketing:

Permission is granted to use the D20 System Logo for the purposes of marketing a Covered Product.

When doing so, the marketing content must include, at a reasonable font, size and color, the following text:

'D20 System' and the D20 System logo are Trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast and are used with permission.

You may also use the text described in the "Mandatory Trademark Use" section in your marketing materials, provided that you also include the appropriate trademark ownership statement provided in that section as well.

Permission is granted to translate this text into a non-English language, provided that the English text is also included, and that the translated text is identified as non-official.

Mandatory Trademark Use:

You must include, visibly and in a readable size, on the cover or back cover (or title page of works without covers) of the Covered Product, one or more of the following text blocks:

"Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R) Player's Handbook, Third Edition, published by Wizards of the Coast(R)”

or

“Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R), Third Edition Core Books, published by Wizards of the Coast(R)”
or

“Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R), Third Edition Core Books, and the Psionics Handbook, published by Wizards of the Coast(R)”

or

“Requires the use of a Roleplaying Game Core Book published by Wizards of the Coast(R)”

Elsewhere in the work, at a reasonable size, you must include the following text:

You must also include the following legal text in a reasonably legible font, point size and color somewhere in the work:

"Dungeons & Dragons(R) and Wizards of the Coast(R) are Registered Trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, and are used with Permission."

If you do not use "Dungeons & Dragons" anywhere in the work, you may instead use the following legal text:

"Wizards of the Coast(R) is a Registered Trademark of Wizards of the Coast and is used with Permission."

Permission is granted to translate this text into a non-English language, provided that the English text is also included, and that the translated text is identified as non-official.

Restricted Trademark Use:

Except as described in the sections titled "Trademark Use in Marketing" and "Mandatory Trademark Use", you may not use the Dungeons & Dragons or Wizards of the Coast trademarks in advertising or in any marketing in support of the Covered Product, or in any other use in conjunction with a Covered Product.

You may not use the D20 System License or the D20 System Logo in conjunction with any product that meets the definition of an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide.

The most important part being that last part:

"Except as described in the sections titled "Trademark Use in Marketing" and "Mandatory Trademark Use", you may not use the Dungeons & Dragons or Wizards of the Coast trademarks in advertising or in any marketing in support of the Covered Product, or in any other use in conjunction with a Covered Product."

Right there on their front page they say "Dungeons and Dragons" and "Star Wars."

Please tell me I am not looking at the right page or something.

If I am right, this is the kind of thing I am talking about. Blatant disregard for the "easy stuff" from the license. Not saying "Dungeons and Dragons" except as allowed is the easy part. If they cant get that right, why should I trust them to do right the invisible stuff that I cant see?

I really hope I am wrong and that is some old page I was viewing.

Clark

 

[jujutsunerd]

Please tell me I am not looking at the right page or something.

Unfortunately we had focused exclusively on getting the program/data files compliant, and had completely forgotten about the web page. I have now altered it in a manner which I believe makes it less bad (though certainly not good.) However, IANAL (heck, english isn't even my native language) so I have alerted Bryan that he needs to go over the front page ASAP.

I would alter it further, except that I'm uncertain on what we *can* claim, given that we are currently talking with Wotc on whether we are compliant or not. IP law confuses me. Give me code instead.

/Jonas