D&D 5E Purple Dragon Knight

[jayoungr]

To add to what others have said, I don't think they're ready to publish official prestige classes yet. The UA article was just a test balloon to see how they fit in with 5E and whether people liked them.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Does anyone else think this is too specific a concept for a subclass?

On the contrary... I think think all specific concepts should be sub-classes. Plus, to my mind... there is absolutely no difference between sub-classes and prestige classes story-wise... the only difference is the timing and order of receiving the special abilities you get from them.

Sub-classes give you 3-5 special specific features at certain levels spread several levels apart. Prestige classes give you 3-5 special specific features starting at a certain level that you can then potentially take one right after the other (or spread those out too depending on how you alternate your multiclassing levels to do so.) But story-wise... in both cases you are whatever your sub-class or prestige class identifies what you are.

 

[flametitan]

While I definitely understand the idea of the subclass being backloaded, isn't it largely because Fighters are front loaded enough that this is inconsequential? Between Action Surge, Second Wind, plus 3 ASI and extra attack make the class alone worth playing early levels. So the Purple Dragon Knights best features kicking in late is just gravy on top to me.

Oh yeah, the Fighter gets a lot early on as is. The thing is that the BattleMaster is even more frontloaded. A battlemaster at 3rd level spikes in power and versatility, and then tapers off as its other features pertain to getting more superiority dice, better dice, or more manoeuvres (though you probably started off with the ones you'll use most often).

By comparison, the banneret starts with... The ability to restore 3 hit points to allies once a short rest. And not even to unconscious allies. And then it ends with the ability to have two allies attack once each by using a feature you would already use, which is potent on its own, and amazing if you have allies that can take advantage of it; the ability to help people succeed on saves the both of you failed on (situational but good); and 20 hp is a bit more significant a gain, but its usefulness is still situational (As at level 20, assuming no hit dice rolls or negative con mods, you could have 82-345).

So it looks fun, I realize some people want power, and want it now.

 

[GarrettKP]

Oh yeah, the Fighter gets a lot early on as is. The thing is that the BattleMaster is even more frontloaded. A battlemaster at 3rd level spikes in power and versatility, and then tapers off as its other features pertain to getting more superiority dice, better dice, or more manoeuvres (though you probably started off with the ones you'll use most often).

By comparison, the banneret starts with... The ability to restore 3 hit points to allies once a short rest. And not even to unconscious allies. And then it ends with the ability to have two allies attack once each by using a feature you would already use, which is potent on its own, and amazing if you have allies that can take advantage of it; the ability to help people succeed on saves the both of you failed on (situational but good); and 20 hp is a bit more significant a gain, but its usefulness is still situational (As at level 20, assuming no hit dice rolls or negative con mods, you could have 82-345).

So it looks fun, I realize some people want power, and want it now.

That is true. Most players only look at how a character helps them. But Purple Dragon Knights are all about helping the party. Inspiring Surge is a huge ability is your party has a Barbarian, a Paladin or a Rogue. And almost every party will have one of these.

I personally like that PDKs have these powers get better later, as it's something to help keep excitement up in the later levels (at least to me). But to really enjoy the PDK you have to enjoy helping your teammates be better. And I understand that's not for everyone.

 

[Tony Vargas]

On the contrary... I think think all specific concepts should be sub-classes. Plus, to my mind... there is absolutely no difference between sub-classes and prestige classes story-wise... the only difference is the timing and order of receiving the special abilities you get from them.

Sub-classes are relatively universal. A Battlemaster could be a fencer, a knight, a samurai, a janissary, hoplite, etc. Prestige classes are specific to a campaign, culture, organization or the like. A Purple Dragon Knight has earned a place in the society of Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms.

And, yes, timing is part of it. Sub-classes are chosen when you reach a certain level, regardless of what you've been doing. You reach 3rd level after beating a lot of orcs to death with a greatsword, you can become an Eldritch Knight and start casting spells. Your Eldritch Knight can't start casting spells at 2nd level or 11th, only at 3rd, and it's internal to the character. Prestige Classes are obtained when you've met a given RP pre-requisite. When you've proven yourself to the Grand Master of the Knightly Order of the Purple Dragon, by completing a Quest (or whatever it might hypothetically be), you can become a Purple Dragon Knight.

PrCs also mesh with sub-classes and can be mixed in to varying degrees, while sub-classes are an all-or-nothing thing. You can be a Battlemaster and take the PDK PrC, and advance in it or not. You cannot be both a Battlemaster and a sub-class PDK.

 

[GarrettKP]

Sub-classes are relatively universal. A Battlemaster could be a fencer, a knight, a samurai, a janissary, hoplite, etc. Prestige classes are specific to a campaign, culture, organization or the like. A Purple Dragon Knight has earned a place in the society of Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms.

And, yes, timing is part of it. Sub-classes are chosen when you reach a certain level, regardless of what you've been doing. You reach 3rd level after beating a lot of orcs to death with a greatsword, you can become an Eldritch Knight and start casting spells. Your Eldritch Knight can't start casting spells at 2nd level or 11th, only at 3rd, and it's internal to the character. Prestige Classes are obtained when you've met a given RP pre-requisite. When you've proven yourself to the Grand Master of the Knightly Order of the Purple Dragon, by completing a Quest (or whatever it might hypothetically be), you can become a Purple Dragon Knight.

PrCs also mesh with sub-classes and can be mixed in to varying degrees, while sub-classes are an all-or-nothing thing. You can be a Battlemaster and take the PDK PrC, and advance in it or not. You cannot be both a Battlemaster and a sub-class PDK.

You can just as easily be a Knight of the Order background, Choose the Purple Dragons as your order and be a Battlemaster if you so choose.

I personally don't see any issue with having PDK being a subclass. Most people will treat it as an extension of their background. They were a Purple Dragon Knight before they became an adventurer. Same goes for subclasses like Battlerager and Bladesinger. That's just what you are at the start.

They way I see it, there isn't a lot of difference between a Purple Dragon Knight and a Warlord. Both use inspirational buffs to help their party. Why bother making a Warlord subclass and a PDK PrC when one subclass can easily fill both roles in a game system?

 

[Tony Vargas]

You can just as easily be a Knight of the Order background, Choose the Purple Dragons as your order and be a Battlemaster if you so choose.

At 1st (Noble Background, customized) and 3rd level (BM), respectively, yes. Not nearly the same thing.

I personally don't see any issue with having PDK being a subclass.

There's no problem with the Bannerette as a sub-class. There's not much trouble with the mechanics. The PDK concept, though, is ideal for a PrC.

They way I see it, there isn't a lot of difference between a Purple Dragon Knight and a Warlord. Both use inspirational buffs to help their party. Why bother making a Warlord subclass and a PDK PrC when one subclass can easily fill both roles in a game system?

There's a set relation difference. A PDK is a very specific concept compared to the Warlord, and the mechanics of the sub-class profoundly limited compared to Warlord, all the more so considering the difference in native system. A Walord class, a Bannerette sub-class, a Noble background, and a PDK PrC could all make perfect sense, though. Just like having a Rogue class, Thief sub-class, and Criminal Background already do - and adding a Shadowthief of Amn PrC could.

 

[GarrettKP]

At 1st (Noble Background, customized) and 3rd level (BM), respectively, yes. Not nearly the same thing.

There's no problem with the Bannerette as a sub-class. There's not much trouble with the mechanics. The PDK concept, though, is ideal for a PrC.

There's a set relation difference. A PDK is a very specific concept compared to the Warlord, and the mechanics of the sub-class profoundly limited compared to Warlord, all the more so considering the difference in native system. A Walord class, a Bannerette sub-class, a Noble background, and a PDK PrC could all make perfect sense, though.

But a Bannerette is just a Knight tasked to lead men, which matches exactly the fluff for PDK. Sure a Warlord is this on a bigger scale, and very well could be added as a player option on its own, but at it's core all three of these can be explained using that same sentence. And I should say that PDK/Bannerette as presented in the SCAG doesn't preclude the addition of a Warlord option down the line.

It would be easy enough to call your character a Bannerette until you "earn" the title of Purple Dragon Knight in the campaign proper. But they are the same thing.One (PDK) is just the other in a specific setting.

Then again I should say that I have never cared for Prestige Classes in general, so maybe that has an influence on my viewpoint.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But a Bannerette is just a Knight tasked to lead men, which matches exactly the fluff for PDK.

The genericized fluff, not the Cormyr-specific stuff.

Sure a Warlord is this on a bigger scale, and very well could be added as a player option on its own, but at it's core all three of these can be explained using that same sentence.

There's no requirement a Warlord be a Knight, for one thing, nor did Warlord builds necessarily lead in the literal sense (that's not what the 'Leader' Role meant), while a Bannerette is just like any other archaic military rank in having some formal authority.

Then again I should say that I have never cared for Prestige Classes in general, so maybe that has an influence on my viewpoint.

Sure. I find the 5e article on PrCs more acceptable than the 3.x implementation of PrCs. 3.x used them as MC-rule kludges, for instance, while 5e's MCing, though optional and '3e style,' has been refined - and sub-classes like EK and backgrounds like Criminal already serve as MC-lite kludges of that nature. So I'm excited by the prospect of PrCs being used in setting material, and see SCAG as a missed opportunity that way.

 

[Erik Westmarch]

I would never make a sub-class for something this specific. Just handle it through role playing. Rogues don't need a sub-class for joining a Thieve's Guild.