D&D 5E Pushing off a cliff

[Nilbog]

Hi

apologies if this is obvious but I can't find an answer.

In our game last night night our wizard used Bigbys hand to push a Golem off a cliff, however we couldn't find any rules to see if the Golem had a save to prevent this, ultimately we ruled it had to make a dex save vs the spells DC

is there any official rulings around this?

 

[Mercule]

Reading the spell description, I'd say the Strength check is the "save". So, the way I understand it, there is no additional contest/save/whatever and the golem has to try to fly.

In practice, I generally give the PCs an extra save or some suck to avoid things like this -- and what's good for the goose is good for the monsters. So, I probably would have given the golem a Dex save or (more likely) an Acrobatics/Athletics check to catch the edge of the cliff as he fell. This would leave him in a really bad position, but avoid a Wile-E-Coyote moment.

 

[pdzoch]

You did not miss a rule. I am not aware that one exists for it either.

However, I do have a houserule I use in this instance (good for monster and player). When a forced movement moves a target into an open space where they may fall, I allow a dexterity save to see if they can grab the ledge to prevent the fall. The DC depends on what's in their hands at the time and the conditions of the ledge. If they want to keep one of their weapons in their hands, I increase the save DC. If they save, they do not fall, but are hanging precariously from the ledge. Pulling themselves up consumes a full move (I figure the half move distance for standing up rule would apply twice -- once to pull level with floor, once more to stand up). Meanwhile, any melee attacks against a dangling target is at advantage. Target can't make opportunity attacks. During a melee, this save only delays the inevitable and adds a little bit of drama to the fight. If the forced move occurred due to a magical push, then the target might be able to recover and get back into the fight (though he may have to find another weapon first).

 

[Barolo]

To answer your question directly, as others already pointed out, it seems there isn't anything in the rules you missed.

Anyway, good ruling on your part. If you felt like it would be too cheap to just let the golem fall and let it roll a dex save, or an acrobatics check, or whatever would make sense, this is completely within your prerogative as a DM. Don't worry it is not written anywhere.

 

[mrpopstar]

Say NO to past edition baggage!

The golem in this scenario would have been pushed over the cliff. No saving throw.

Terrain features are the scariest monsters of all.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Same. If it’s a fall that will result in certain death, I’ll let them have a second chance via acrobatics or athletics, whether PC or significant monster. They still might take some falling damage as they catch themselves, though.

I’m all for PCs getting creative and using the environments to their advantage, but pushing the BBEG off a 1,000-foot drop is a bit of a let-down. Now, of the BBEG grabs a PC and takes them over, with the fight now occurring as they cling to the side of the cliff, that’s another story.

In practice, I generally give the PCs an extra save or some suck to avoid things like this -- and what's good for the goose is good for the monsters. So, I probably would have given the golem a Dex save or (more likely) an Acrobatics/Athletics check to catch the edge of the cliff as he fell. This would leave him in a really bad position, but avoid a Wile-E-Coyote moment.

 

[Mercule]

pushing the BBEG off a 1,000-foot drop is a bit of a let-down. Now, of the BBEG grabs a PC and takes them over, with the fight now occurring as they cling to the side of the cliff, that’s another story.

Funny you should mention that. I ran the original I6 Ravenloft, back in the day. One of the PCs was a Thief-Acrobat, from the 1E Unearthed Arcana. He may have been a bit cocky.

I generally played Strahd as being very, very cat and mouse with the PCs. He would frequently engage with no intent to actually kill them, just demoralize. During one of these encounters, the aforementioned Acrobat decided to charge Strahd and tackle him -- while Strahd was standing at the back edge of the castle. You know, the part that has the scenic view of the valley 1,000 feet below. Well, Strahd just kinda went with it and they both tumbled over the edge. I believe Strahd returned the grapple to prevent any sort of slow-fall or catch attempt, made some comment about that character not being the brains of the party, and turned into gas about halfway down.

That time, there were no additional opportunities for saves given.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

What [MENTION=25352]mrpopstar[/MENTION] said, but with a slightly different bent:

Adding more die rolls that have to go a specific way before the desired outcome of an action is arrived at makes it far less likely that the desired outcome occurs.

In this case, the desired outcome is to take advantage of the terrain for a fight not being a vast featureless plain - and if you would have a 70% chance of pushing your target across a vast featureless plain, but they get a save they only have a 30% chance of succeeding at to avoid that same push sending them over a cliff, you've taken what could be described as "more likely than not to work" and made it describable as "basically a coin toss" because even with really bad odds to pass the save, the chance of desired outcome happening is 49%.

And the end result of putting these extra rolls between declared action and desired outcome? In my experience, it's that players simply stop attempting any action other than those which you haven't stuck extra rolls onto (i.e. "I guess I'll just attack and deal damage since everything else is too likely to fail")

 

[cmad1977]

What [MENTION=25352]mrpopstar[/MENTION] said, but with a slightly different bent:

Adding more die rolls that have to go a specific way before the desired outcome of an action is arrived at makes it far less likely that the desired outcome occurs.

In this case, the desired outcome is to take advantage of the terrain for a fight not being a vast featureless plain - and if you would have a 70% chance of pushing your target across a vast featureless plain, but they get a save they only have a 30% chance of succeeding at to avoid that same push sending them over a cliff, you've taken what could be described as "more likely than not to work" and made it describable as "basically a coin toss" because even with really bad odds to pass the save, the chance of desired outcome happening is 49%.

And the end result of putting these extra rolls between declared action and desired outcome? In my experience, it's that players simply stop attempting any action other than those which you haven't stuck extra rolls onto (i.e. "I guess I'll just attack and deal damage since everything else is too likely to fail")

The '2nd save' is something I only allow players.


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[AaronOfBarbaria]

The '2nd save' is something I only allow players.

That's not entirely absent the ability to alter perception of certain activities.

Players might forget that their opponents won't get the second roll because they always see the roll happen when the opponents try things on them.

Players might also feel that this rule is the DM putting on "kid gloves" for them, and end up not liking it. I know I personally don't like when a DM looks like they aren't sure whether they want to be adding a particular element or not because they are also mitigating their own choice with another change - which is what using dangerous terrain with a safety-net roll is.