Putting it together -- Using Arcana Unearthed and other D20 products

[William Ronald]

In another thread on the boards, I asked a question about using material from Arcana Unearthed along with D&D 3.5 materials. There are many things that I like about products like Arcana Unearthed and Green Ronin's Testament. (My homebrew will have some parallels with real world cultures.)

Any thoughts on using materials from Arcana Unearthed, especially the spell casting classes with D&D 3.5? The magic system is somewhat different, which gives rise to a few questions. Should all spellcasting characters be converted to a single magic system? If so, which system -- 3.5, AU or a hybrid? Or should AU characters use an AU magic system and spells, and D&D 3.5 use the D&D rules and spells and never mix? For those who have used AU, how do the classes and magic system stack up compared with D&D 3.5?

Also, what do you think products like AU, Testament or other D20 products have to offer to DMs and players. Thanks in advance for your response.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I think the spellcasting classes should be kept separate. If you're going to allow wizards, sorcerers, clerics, etc. alongside their AU counterparts, don't mix and match. The AU casters will draw their feats, abilities, and spells from the AU book, and the DnD casters from the DnD book.

The warriors and skill-based classes fit alongside DnD classes with greater ease. You might notice that in general, the DnD classes grow in power exponentially while the the AU classes seem to have a more linear curve. I can say that the AU classes do have a very gradual, steady increase in power. In the long-term, I think it all evens out.

You might want to look at AU's version of a feat (Rapid Reload) and DnD's (Rapid Shot) and decide which you'll use. There are a number of instances where two feats are different but superfluous. In those cases, decide which one you like best and use it. Monte made some changes he thought were moer balancing, but YMMV. I don't think it's going to break the game if you use Spring Attack instead of Speed Burst.

That's all that's coming to mind at the moment. If I think of more, I'll add it.

 

[William Ronald]

I think the spellcasting classes should be kept separate. If you're going to allow wizards, sorcerers, clerics, etc. alongside their AU counterparts, don't mix and match. The AU casters will draw their feats, abilities, and spells from the AU book, and the DnD casters from the DnD book.

The warriors and skill-based classes fit alongside DnD classes with greater ease. You might notice that in general, the DnD classes grow in power exponentially while the the AU classes seem to have a more linear curve. I can say that the AU classes do have a very gradual, steady increase in power. In the long-term, I think it all evens out.

You might want to look at AU's version of a feat (Rapid Reload) and DnD's (Rapid Shot) and decide which you'll use. There are a number of instances where two feats are different but superfluous. In those cases, decide which one you like best and use it. Monte made some changes he thought were moer balancing, but YMMV. I don't think it's going to break the game if you use Spring Attack instead of Speed Burst.

That's all that's coming to mind at the moment. If I think of more, I'll add it.

Good thoughts, GoodKingJayIII! What is your opinion on spells being kept ready (I don't have my books with me now, so I may be using the wrong term) by AU casters? Should a D&D 3.5 character have a similar ability? Also, should AU characters and D&D 3.5 characters use their respective item creation rules, or should I just chose between the two?

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

What is your opinion on spells being kept ready (I don't have my books with me now, so I may be using the wrong term) by AU casters?

I think you should keep them as-is. DnD casters do not have the flexibility, but they make up for it in sheer power. For instance, Cleric's gain Raise Dead as a 5th level spell. AU caster's don't get the equivalent until 7th or 8th spell level. Wizards and Sorcerers get magic missiles. AU casters have no equivalency. Wizards and Sorcerers get Save or Die spells. Again, there's no equivalent in AU. I think you can leave both sets of casters as they are and they'll be relatively balanced. Again, you might find differently, but judging from what I read on paper, on Monte's boards, and my own limited experiences the classes are balanced well against one another, so long as the systems aren't mixed too much.

Should a D&D 3.5 character have a similar ability? Also, should AU characters and D&D 3.5 characters use their respective item creation rules, or should I just chose between the two?

I don't think it'd be a problem to use Monte's Item Creation rules. I like their generality, and they leave a lot of room for a whole slew of different kinds of magic items. Try using AU's as the standard item creation rules. See what happens.

As an aside, if you'd like to get more responses, head on over here. Great place to get all kinds of AU stuff.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I think AU has a LOT to offer DMs and players on several fronts: First, it shows that you can do mainstream d20 fantasy without several of the D&D sacred cows (e.g. divine magic, alignment). Second, it's a PHB with serious flavor ingrained in its magic, feats, and class design, rather than the purposely more generic core books. Third, it cleans up a lot of arguably broken or less-than-sensible rules in D&D (suboptimal multiclassing, certain spells, item creation feats based on physical item type, etc.).

There are other assets to the book, of course, but yeah, I think it's pretty good.

As to fusion D&D 3.5/AU campaigns: I'm running one right now (set in FR), and it's going well. I've jury-rigged the heck out of some of the rules (my cleric, for instance!), but I am using a bunch of the rules straight out of the box, including item creation and the magic system as a whole. There is no more standard D&D spellcasting; no level adjustment metamagic feats, no energy substitution, no spell preparation. I have two allowable arcane spellcasters: Mages (the new magister) and bards. Bards get simple arcane spells and all spells with the music descriptor (a new descriptor that inserts the signature bard spells), and use the mageblade spellcasting progression. Mages are nearly identical to magisters, with some notable exceptions:

-d4 HD
-Must maintain spellbooks in which they keep all their complex and exotic spells known. They don't need to USE the books to ready spells, but they have to learn them and keep a written repository, or have access to one. Mages receive five free complex spells every level, and may add other spells to their spellbooks by the means normally available to D&D wizards (enemy mages' spellbooks, mage guilds, etc.). The Exotic Spell feat does what it's always done, adding the requisite spell for free. However, mages can find exotic spells in written form also, though these are hard to locate.
-Can use any held item of Tiny or larger size as a focus for spellcasting, or can go with one of the following:
-Familiar focus: The mage's familiar (I allow a mage to take a familiar by using a feat) must be within 20 feet of him in order for him to avoid lack of focus penalties.
-Spellbook focus: The mage must study his spellbook each day for 1 hour.

I use a blend of AU and D&D spells designed to avoid the spell no-nos of AU (magic missile, 3.0 haste, time stop) while preserving the important D&D flavor spells and some versatility. I've attached the list, if you care to see it!

 

[Destil]

My biggest problem with intergrating the AU magic system is thoes elemental damage types. By the book they sholuld be more common and easier to defend against, but nothing in the MM has any elemental resistances aside from fire...

Anyone come up with a soltion to this? It's been bugging me for a while whenever I think about using AU.

 

[nopantsyet]

I'm with GoodKingJayIII. I use both but don't mix and match. A Magister uses only AU spells, and a Wizard only uses D&D spells, etc. This campaign has been going for 9 months now and it's working out very well. The players are still thoroughly confused when they kill a spellcaster and find a staff with a waning magical aura.

As far as different elemental damage types, I've just avoided it. Sure, it's the easy way out, but when you're adding a second magic system to your game, you can afford a few shortcuts.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Good thoughts, GoodKingJayIII! What is your opinion on spells being kept ready (I don't have my books with me now, so I may be using the wrong term) by AU casters? Should a D&D 3.5 character have a similar ability? Also, should AU characters and D&D 3.5 characters use their respective item creation rules, or should I just chose between the two?

If you want a D&D caster to have spells readied, then you need to rewrite the rules. As GoodKingJay mentions, D&D wizards get power over flexibility. Keeping them as separate magical traditions works well. I'd suggest reading Monte's AU Design Diaries to get an idea of the underpinnings of AU. Then if you want to tinker further, you can a little more knowledgeably.

From my perspective as a DM with limited time these days, I want to do as little design and as much campaigning as possible. Which is why I suggest keeping things as is.

Now, as to elemental vs. energy resistances, I'd simply alter one in three or four encounters with an energy-resistant monster to have earth resistance or water resistance just to shake up the PCs a bit. However, it doesn't make a huge difference to have it in the game as is. Fireburst is still the best low-level AU area spell, and it's fire. Sorcerous blast does use elemental damage, but it's average output is still 3.5 per die like a fireball.

Testament, unfortunately, I don't have so I can't comment on. I hear good things about it though.

 

[William Ronald]

A few quick comments before I fall asleep. (I have enough ranks in Urban Survival to make sure I don't fall asleep at the keyboard.)

I will go over the design diaries, as it might give me a few more insights. Keeping the classes separate as GoodKingJayIII and nopantsyet have suggested might work well. There is certainly enough room in most worlds for different magical and fighting traditions.

One thought that might help with the elemental resistances is to give them to appropriate creatures -- so it might be hard to damage an xorn with earth-based spells (except for the ones in the monster description -- consider these an Achilles heel.)

Varianor Abroad -- Testament has a LOT to offer in terms of cultural information and classes. (Examples include calendars for four different cultures, including religious festivals, and blessings to secure good fortune and harvest for a community. The latter would probably fit in easily to the ritual nature of AU magic. As for classes, some are very interesting and fit closely to the different cultures. I can tell you more if you wish. I do have to say that I consider both AU and Testament among the best D20 products -- period.) An irony of the setting is that it has True Names as well, but don't do much for you except help with horoscopes. (There are some spells that an AU caster would kill to have that can compel others to reveal true names or cause harm or death based on it. The whole True Name issue for various games might require another thread called "Will the True "True Name" Please Stand Up?")

Also, any thought on how some of the AU races might interact with some of the D&D standard races? (Mine will have a few different cultures.) I think the Litorians of AU would get along with elves because of their independent nature. The Litorians, by the way, seem to take an almost existentialist approach to ethics.

 

[Destil]

Here's some quick and dirty elemental resistance rules I've been mulling over:
(Note that I'm going to refer to Fire as an energy type as "heat" instead of fire for the sake of clarity.)

Creatures have Fire resistance equal to the greater of their Heat or Electricity resistance.
Creatures have Earth resistance equal to the greater of their Acid resistance or their non alignment-based Damage Reduction doubled(edit:L only double this if you're using 3.5 DR values, for 3.0 use the base DR).
Creatures have Water resistance equal to the greater of their Cold or Acid resistance.
Creatures have Air resistance equal to the greater of their Sonic or Electricity resistance.

Creatures with a elemental subtype have resistance 20 to that element (added to resistance from the above).

Elementals are immune to their own elemental type spells unless their description states otherwise. Against opposed elements (Air damage vs. an earth elemental) they suffer double damage unless it allows a saving, in which case they take normal damage on a successful save (partial, half or none depending on the effect).