Putting the Fun Back into Learning the Rules

[Ariosto]

You are asking the wrong people.

We can't define "fun" for your players any more than you can. Player X either finds something fun or does not, and trying to argue that his response "ought to" be something else is just silly.

So, if you want fun to be someplace, then you need to find out what your players consider fun and then put that in the place.

If using the rules is fun for Joe, then Joe will use the rules and so -- by repeated experience -- become well acquainted with them.

If using the rules is not fun for Joe, then trying to push that is probably just going to make the experience in sum less fun for him.

"How do I get my players to learn a command-line interface?" is an attitude that probably would get shot down pretty quickly in the modern computer-game world. If "point and click" is what people want, then either you deliver it or they move on to a game that does. If your game requires typing in codes, then you self-select for a player base that happens to like (or at least not mind) that kind of setup.

 

[Diamond Cross]

One solution is to drug them and sell them as slaves to the Middle East slave market.

 

[pukunui]

Thanks everyone. I think I should clarify that I'm not so much looking for ideas on how to get players to learn the rules in the first place as I am looking for ideas on how to get them to want to learn the rules, if you get the distinction.

That is, I'm looking for ways to motivate them.

At the table, make them look things up rather than telling them. They'll become acquainted with the rules books, and begin to learn where the rules are, if not learning the actual rules.

Yes, the trick is getting them to look up the rules before their turn comes up so they don't keep everyone else waiting. How do I get them to be that proactive?

If there are subtle negative effects on them for not knowing the rules (game play gets bogged down), they'll be more likely to have an incentive to learn them.

Gameplay getting bogged down is my primary concern at this point, but it doesn't appear to be enough of an incentive for them. Some of them get impatient when others appear to be taking too long during initiative, but no one seems to get that they should really be thinking ahead and that if they need to look something up, they should do it ahead of time. I do this when I'm playing, but leading by example in this instance doesn't seem to work.

I think this is a combination of incentive and ease of learning. You've made it easier for them to learn (with the quicksheets) but you haven't given them an incentive (if you just provide them with the answer time and time again).

Exactly. And I haven't given them an incentive because I don't know what the incentive should be.

I think it depends on the manner in which they don't know the rules. If they are trying to use the normal rules and just aren't familiar enough that it slows the game, I think a quick chat that you'd like people to put effort into knowing their characters will be sufficient.

I've tried that in the past. And I've put it in my table rules documents (words to the effect that every player has a responsibility to learn the rules for their character and that, should they need to look something up, please do so before your turn comes up and so on ... but no one ever looks at that stuff.)

If the player really doesn't get it after applying the rule a few times, just make a cheat sheet.

I have done so. And while it does mean that I don't have to tell them to look stuff up in the actual book as much, I still find myself having to remind them on a regular basis that the cheat sheet is even there, let alone what's on it. They just don't seem to be all that "with it".

Imxp, it's not not knowing the rule that's disruptive, but rather looking up the rule and trying to parse it while grumpy players are waiting impatiently for their turns. Cheat sheets bypass all that wasted time spent flipping pages and reading.

Yes exactly! Now if only I could get my players to think to look at their cheat sheets without me having to remind them!

We can't define "fun" for your players any more than you can. Player X either finds something fun or does not, and trying to argue that his response "ought to" be something else is just silly.

You're absolutely right. However, you can still tell me what has worked (or what hasn't) for your group and then I can try that myself and see if it works for my group.


EDIT: Oh, and for the record, we are playing Star Wars Saga Edition. The fact that it's now out of print and the rulebooks are becoming increasingly hard to find and expensive doesn't help. We have enough books to go round at the table, but not everyone has one to look at away from the table. Oh, and my players are all fans of the d20 system. And I'm not complaining about all of them. Some of them actually do know how their character's abilities work and are pretty with it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes, the trick is getting them to look up the rules before their turn comes up so they don't keep everyone else waiting. How do I get them to be that proactive?

Give them a limit, after which they are automatically holding their action until they make a decision.....this round, next round, the one after that....whatever.

Impose the rule (i.e., give them advanced warning), stick to the rule (even when the monsters get three turns to their one), and let the pieces fall where they may.

Your players will either be motivated to learn the rules, or to at least make a decision relatively quickly, or accept that their characters will die a lot, or to find another game. Unless you are afraid of that last option, you can simply let them worry about which of the first three options to pick.


RC

 

[pukunui]

I've actually got a time limit thing in my table rules as well (you have a reasonable amount of time for your turn, after which your PC is considered to be delaying), but I've never actually enforced it. Partly because I have yet to get a 30 second or 1 minute* sand timer to use and partly because I just haven't wanted to be that strict. I also have a new player who is struggling to keep up with the pressure of a fast-paced tabletop game (she is used to the more leisurely pace of a play-by-post game), and I don't really want to be that hard on her ... but really, the other three players ought to know better and be more on the ball. Two of them are pretty good, actually, and the third would be but he often gets tired, especially towards the end of the session.

Anyway ... I really need to get around to finding a good sand timer. I suppose I could just use the timer on my iPhone ... But if I get an actual sand timer, then my players can be the ones to police their own time limit instead of it being one more thing for me to have to worry about. They already handle the initiative board for me. The sand timer could be part of that "duty".



*Would 30 seconds or 1 minute be better/more fair?

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I think a timer is a good idea.

But, two things:

1. A sand timer is a bad idea. Reason being, once someone goes, before the timer ends, you either have to wait until the sand falls to the bottom or use another, different sand timer. I think you want something like a chess clock or a digital kitchen timer/egg timer. You want something that can be reset to max instantly, not something you have to wait for.

2. I'd go with a minute, or even two minutes at first. No reason to shock them. You can always scale back the time later on.



Somewhat separately, if you want to influence behavior, there have to be consequences, or the influence is usually nil. These consequences can be positive or negative, and reward or punishment...but if they aren't there (on a fixed or intermittent schedule), you effectively don't have a way to influence behavior beyond asking them.

I don't say that to lecture, but rather because you seem hesitant to be somewhat strict. I get that. The game is meant to be fun...but messing around and not playing can actually be less fun than getting used to being on the ball. My advice is to have a lenient (hell, 3 minutes?) time frame, but to be strict on enforcement of that time frame.


I'll also add an observation: This is a problem that is self exacerbating. When one player takes forever, the others tune out. Then they take forever, and everyone else tunes out.

The good news is that when everyone is on the ball, the social pressure shifts from "everyone finds something to chat about/do while 1 person plays" to "everyone is focused because no one wants to be the guy who is the odd man out/loses his turn".

 

[pukunui]

Good points. One of the other players has an iPod touch. I can ask him to use the timer on that. When I asked my players for suggestions on how to improve the game late last year, one of them actually said he wanted me to start using a timer. I just haven't ever gotten around to it ...

I suppose you're right though. Giving them a minute or two to make a decision after which point their PC automatically delays until they are ready might be enough of an incentive to actually get them to look stuff up ahead of time when they need to.

It seems like the answer to my problem might have been right in front of my face the entire time, since it's always been my intention to do the above (to the extent that I've even written it into my table rules); I've just never put it into practice.

I'll give that a go and see how that works.

I'm also intending to put together a cheat sheet that has things like the basic list of actions and their costs (something that's on my GM screen but was never put into the actual rulebook - this is a biggie for my new player, as she's still asking what sort of action it costs to open a door and all that). That might help as well.

Thanks!

 

[Hussar]

I've actually got a time limit thing in my table rules as well (you have a reasonable amount of time for your turn, after which your PC is considered to be delaying), but I've never actually enforced it. Partly because I have yet to get a 30 second or 1 minute* sand timer to use and partly because I just haven't wanted to be that strict. I also have a new player who is struggling to keep up with the pressure of a fast-paced tabletop game (she is used to the more leisurely pace of a play-by-post game), and I don't really want to be that hard on her ... but really, the other three players ought to know better and be more on the ball. Two of them are pretty good, actually, and the third would be but he often gets tired, especially towards the end of the session.

Anyway ... I really need to get around to finding a good sand timer. I suppose I could just use the timer on my iPhone ... But if I get an actual sand timer, then my players can be the ones to police their own time limit instead of it being one more thing for me to have to worry about. They already handle the initiative board for me. The sand timer could be part of that "duty".



*Would 30 seconds or 1 minute be better/more fair?

I used to use a "shot clock" all the time. Maybe not rigidly enforced, but, when someone's turn came up, I'd start to count to 10 in my head. If the player hasn't said anything by the time I slowly count to ten, I give him a reminder (dude, you're up!). Count to 10 again. If the player still hasn't even started his turn, he generally got a second warning and a third 10 count.

After the third one, I just said that he dithered and moved on to the next turn. And, NO TAKEBACKS. If I stated that the character dithered, he lost the round. End of discussion.

I had to be a real stickler for this for about one session. After that, it never happened again. You skip someone's turn once or twice, they get the hint.

 

[chaochou]

You'd like to motivate the players to learn (more of) the rules. Hmm.

How about:
1. Identifying the benefits to the game and everyone's enjoyment from them knowing what their character's are capable of.
2. Being honest with your players and explaining those benefits to them in a positive way.

 

[Hussar]

Something I noticed leading up to instituting a shot clock was I actually timed turns during a session and then presented the results before the next session. I think people were rather shocked at just how much dither time there was.