I'm curious about this too. I'm a player who likes a puzzle or two here or there to spice the game up. That said, I think if 4th edition does have anything on the subject of puzzles, it will be under the new revised trap design system we've heard a little bit about. There's not a huge difference between puzzles and traps, fundamentally, so improving one should hopefully improve the other.
Puzzles in 4th Edition
- Thread starter Stalker0
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Fallen Seraph
First Post
As a DM, I have always liked to try and incorporate some element of skill-rolls, reaction-rolls, etc. in my puzzles.
So the players/PCs puzzle it out. Test out their solutions, possibly the task they need to perform to solve the puzzle needs rolls, or if they fail a trap is sprung, etc.
So the players/PCs puzzle it out. Test out their solutions, possibly the task they need to perform to solve the puzzle needs rolls, or if they fail a trap is sprung, etc.
Three_Haligonians
First Post
I have run an Epic game where the 31st lvl Wizard has a 30-something INT Score.
Long before we got to this point I saw this problem coming - so I came up with the following idea: Whenever I throw down a puzzle challenge for the PCs, I give the players of those with super-intelligence hints and clues before the puzzle comes. Maybe just before we start to play, maybe as I describe the puzzle, maybe even at the end of last session - but at some point I give them extra time and information.
It works out quite well.
The other thing is that when the group of players is hashing out an answer, I don't pay attention to what character they each play. I let them work it out as a group and then they come to me with an answer. As far as I am concerned, "in-game" the smart one figured it out mostly, or the "dumb one" got lucky or whatever.. that way all the players can be involved if they want and those with lower INT score characters don't feel like they have to wait.
In essence, the entire group helps play the high INT of one character.
Of course, we too love to have comedy from some of the "dumb one's" answers, but it's a good system for us.. YMMV
J from Three Haligonians
Long before we got to this point I saw this problem coming - so I came up with the following idea: Whenever I throw down a puzzle challenge for the PCs, I give the players of those with super-intelligence hints and clues before the puzzle comes. Maybe just before we start to play, maybe as I describe the puzzle, maybe even at the end of last session - but at some point I give them extra time and information.
It works out quite well.
The other thing is that when the group of players is hashing out an answer, I don't pay attention to what character they each play. I let them work it out as a group and then they come to me with an answer. As far as I am concerned, "in-game" the smart one figured it out mostly, or the "dumb one" got lucky or whatever.. that way all the players can be involved if they want and those with lower INT score characters don't feel like they have to wait.
In essence, the entire group helps play the high INT of one character.
Of course, we too love to have comedy from some of the "dumb one's" answers, but it's a good system for us.. YMMV
J from Three Haligonians
ThirdWizard
First Post
I despise puzzles in RPGs only a little less than I despise mazes.
Perhaps the social encounter rules could be somewhat altered into puzzle rules, though? Of course, we won't know until we see the social encounter rules!
Perhaps the social encounter rules could be somewhat altered into puzzle rules, though? Of course, we won't know until we see the social encounter rules!
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Umbran said:
True 'dat. Unfortunately, so many of us have been in games where the DM loves puzzles and makes it a requirement to "get to the next room".
I even had a DM who thought he was clever, back when I was in a university gaming group. He designed a puzzle where we had to move stuff around on a board (changing it from red to blue). If we took more than x turns (I think it was 18-21) then the board reset and a bunch of monsters were summoned. He playtested it with a variety of university students, all of whom figured it out in less than x turns.
Our group (some of us were actually pretty smart, and one was mentally ... different) took almost 2x turns to figure it out. Groupthink anyone? All I know is that those monsters were tough, and we knew beating them a second time was basically impossible. Also, half the players (including me!) did non-game stuff while the puzzle crunching was going on. And, of course, hints? He thought telling us to make the board blue was enough of a hint. (That's like telling someone who has never played chess the rules, then have them face an experienced chess player.)
DMs need to learn to make them optional... and even so, if the part of the group that loves puzzles spend hours on it, something is still wrong. Puzzles also need to logically fit into the setting/adventure/environment. (You shouldn't need to do a sudoku puzzle to enter the servants' quarters.)
Nathan P. Mahney
First Post
Puzzles and riddles are a strange part of D&D. I do think that they are essential to the experience, but they also create a serious disconnect between the character's capabilities and the player's capabilities. That can be a problem for some players, but personally I don't worry about it. D&D is supposed to test the player as well as his character.
I'm starting to think, however, that puzzles shouldn't be presented as major obstacles in whatever quest the party is on. There shouldn't be one path to your goal that can only be passed by solving a puzzle. To my mind they work best when shunted off to the side as a voluntary distraction, a way to reward those who solve them without punishing those who can't.
I'm starting to think, however, that puzzles shouldn't be presented as major obstacles in whatever quest the party is on. There shouldn't be one path to your goal that can only be passed by solving a puzzle. To my mind they work best when shunted off to the side as a voluntary distraction, a way to reward those who solve them without punishing those who can't.
Lord Xtheth
Explorer
DM:"The door is locked... Solve this Suduku to get through"
Fighter player: "F*** this S***, I'm going home"
Mage Player: "F*** this S***, I dont want to play this stupid game any more"
Rogue Player: "F*** this S***, Pass me my Xbox controller"
Puzzles = Boring + Bad idea for (pencil and paper) RPGs
Fighter player: "F*** this S***, I'm going home"
Mage Player: "F*** this S***, I dont want to play this stupid game any more"
Rogue Player: "F*** this S***, Pass me my Xbox controller"
Puzzles = Boring + Bad idea for (pencil and paper) RPGs
Incenjucar
Legend
I've never had a logical scenario where a puzzle or a riddle would even make sense, much like the whole "dungeon with traps so deadly nobody can even use the place" thing.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
See that kind of puzzle is somewhat dumb. But if you make puzzles that are engrossing and interesting they can really notch up the gameplay.
Also I don't think puzzles need by separate from the rest of gameplay. For example in-game:
-The PCs as they duck behind pillars and flatten themselves along the walls as the flaming arrows of the archers belt around them. They scream at the rogue trying to reassemble the mechanism to set off the traps around the archers.
-The PCs spread out across the dance-hall as bright costumed dancers whirl around the hall. The PCs weave their way through, counting the the numerals on the walls they know somewhere in this hall underneath the stone-masonry lies a hidden-chamber (stolen from Indiana Jones
).
As they try to remember and puzzle out this ancient numerical riddle they must contend with the social necessities of the masquerade ball.
That is just two examples of how puzzles/riddles can interweve with ordinary gameplay.
Also I don't think puzzles need by separate from the rest of gameplay. For example in-game:
-The PCs as they duck behind pillars and flatten themselves along the walls as the flaming arrows of the archers belt around them. They scream at the rogue trying to reassemble the mechanism to set off the traps around the archers.
-The PCs spread out across the dance-hall as bright costumed dancers whirl around the hall. The PCs weave their way through, counting the the numerals on the walls they know somewhere in this hall underneath the stone-masonry lies a hidden-chamber (stolen from Indiana Jones
). As they try to remember and puzzle out this ancient numerical riddle they must contend with the social necessities of the masquerade ball.
That is just two examples of how puzzles/riddles can interweve with ordinary gameplay.
