Puzzles in 4th Edition

[DonTadow]

Logic like that is a double-edged sword - taken to the other extreme, folks should actually be hitting each other with real weapons, rather than have a mechanic for it. This, or course, is just as absurd. Since we can see it is absurd at both ends, we should then figure that we ought to choose something in the middle. We should note that maybe your favorite place in the middle may not be someone else's favorite place, and that's okay.

The game has a very long history of variant rules to either simplify or complicate a facet of the game that someone doesn't or does like. There's no call to reduce it to the extremes like this for just one more such suggestion.

But the whole "real weapon thing" doesn't work as an anology because when a DM hands you a sheet of paper with a crytogram on it, you are not really interacting with the huge stone blocks that are the cryptogram in the room. You have a simulation which is a puzzle on a piece of paper, similiar to your charachters weapon on the Piece of paper. Now, if the DM throws a big ole chunk of stone on the table with the crytogram on it, then we could use analogies about bringing swords and shields to the game.
Rolling to solve a puzzle is as extreme as rolling to solve a combat. Having a realistic puzzle room setting is as realistic as real swords. Going through the motions of combat and the puzzle are in the middle.

Ironically enough all are game styles that are very viable. People pay 40 bucks a piece to solve real in game puzzles and have swords at gencon with true dungeons. ON the other end there are a ton of boardgame/rpgs that are fun that wrap up combats with a single die roll.

There are puzzles in every game of d and d, we just call them encounters and combats. Who's going to take out this character, what spell works best in this situation, how do we fight this guy without waking this one.

How's this for a puzzle, an evil warlord traps the party in a collisium where they must fight to the death, there are 4 monsters and 6 pcs. Each pc can fight once. the puzzle is that the monsters are deadly, the parties equivalent cr,. The PCs have to pick who fights who to maximize their strengths.

Everyone who says "i hate puzzles" must really love the trap system, which did away with the trap (which used to be puzzles). That's what I hope 4e gets back too. The puzzle trap. One where your skills and logic help solve the trap (as opposed to a single die roll).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But the whole "real weapon thing" doesn't work as an anology because when a DM hands you a sheet of paper with a crytogram on it, you are not really interacting with the huge stone blocks that are the cryptogram in the room. You have a simulation which is a puzzle on a piece of paper, similiar to your charachters weapon on the Piece of paper. Now, if the DM throws a big ole chunk of stone on the table with the crytogram on it, then we could use analogies about bringing swords and shields to the game.
Rolling to solve a puzzle is as extreme as rolling to solve a combat. Having a realistic puzzle room setting is as realistic as real swords. Going through the motions of combat and the puzzle are in the middle.

Ironically enough all are game styles that are very viable. People pay 40 bucks a piece to solve real in game puzzles and have swords at gencon with true dungeons. ON the other end there are a ton of boardgame/rpgs that are fun that wrap up combats with a single die roll.

There are puzzles in every game of d and d, we just call them encounters and combats. Who's going to take out this character, what spell works best in this situation, how do we fight this guy without waking this one.

How's this for a puzzle, an evil warlord traps the party in a collisium where they must fight to the death, there are 4 monsters and 6 pcs. Each pc can fight once. the puzzle is that the monsters are deadly, the parties equivalent cr,. The PCs have to pick who fights who to maximize their strengths.

Everyone who says "i hate puzzles" must really love the trap system, which did away with the trap (which used to be puzzles). That's what I hope 4e gets back too. The puzzle trap. One where your skills and logic help solve the trap (as opposed to a single die roll).

The good stuff in the 3E trap rules where that you could actually use your character abilities. The bad thing was that it was too simple - roll a d20 + Disable Device and see if you succeed.

I think the concept of encounter traps is pretty good from a "gamist" point of view - everyone can contribute, and there is some dynamic in it. (But this probably doesn't work for all kinds of traps.)

I am a big fan of using character statistics for all tasks in D&D - but there is still a hard-definable element that must be decided on by the player.

Maybe it isn't even so hard-definable? I think the goal should be that the player makes decisions, but the character statistics determines whether he succeeds doing the thing he decided. Decisions are things like "Which target do I flank? Should I risk telling the Baron that his daughter is involved in a very nasty affair? Do I seach for the keys to this lock, or should I simply bash it down?"

The hard part of puzzles is that it's difficult to make a meaningful decision when confronted with a puzzle like "Find the cipher for this book to open the Gate" or "find the right combinations of levers" and also using the characters abilities. Maybe the decision isn't "how do I solve the riddle" but "should I try to bypass the puzzle or do I try to solve it?" (But if you go for solving it, how can character abilities factor in?)

 

[MaelStorm]

Yeah, and instead of playing out a combat round by round, we could just resolve that with a single die roll too! You roll 1d20 + Level vs 10+ Enemy's level. If you win the fight is won-- if you lose you have to flee for your lives / die! They could do this same thing for dealing with interacting with NPCs-- no more pesky role-playing to get in the way-- a single d20 roll is all you need. Heck, you could skip the entire game session entirely by flipping a coin!

Indeed. I agree, it wouldn't be fun at all.

As I said in my intro, it was only if you want to use a mechanic that simulate a check roll.

In my book, a suggestion is not a rule set in stone. Heck, I'll even admit it was a poor one. But you know what, if you don't like my suggestion you can just throw it in the garbage. That's what I usually do when I don't like a suggestion. It should be as simple as that.

 

[DonTadow]

Nobody does puzzles better than Cloud Games. In their later books, they provide 3 hints with each puzzle. What I did was use an intelligence roll to receive 1, 2, 3 or none of these hints and your character has to have ranks in reasoning (one of the secondary skills form the book a skill for everything).

 

[sinecure]

Nobody does puzzles better than Cloud Games. In their later books, they provide 3 hints with each puzzle. What I did was use an intelligence roll to receive 1, 2, 3 or none of these hints and your character has to have ranks in reasoning (one of the secondary skills form the book a skill for everything).

Sounds interesting, but do you reward XP to one person for getting the answer right or is it group thing? Personally, I love puzzles.

 

[Crothian]

I like puzzles. I think puzzles still need to be in the game and the modules but with a nice little sidebar that explains what can replace the puzzle if the group doesn't want to use it. It would be very easy to include information for people on both sides of this issue.

 

[WyzardWhately]

I like puzzles. I think puzzles still need to be in the game and the modules but with a nice little sidebar that explains what can replace the puzzle if the group doesn't want to use it. It would be very easy to include information for people on both sides of this issue.

Another good deal is to make sure there's a way around the puzzle, if the party really wants to take it. If it honestly does just frustrate them, they could generally just blow stoneshape or something and bust through the wall. I mean, Disintegrate solves a lot of problems if you're willing to expend the resources necessary to cast it.

I don't mind puzzles if done well, I just have a strong suspicion that there are many more DMs who think their puzzles are good than DMs who actually have good puzzles.

 

[Quickleaf]

How would a 4e puzzle look?

Traditional puzzles rarely involve decisions of consequence for the players, but they should. Making decisions is fun - players enjoy having the option to choose the quick & dangerous route or the safe & tedious route, whether to use stealth/strength/trickery to penetrate a fortress, and which son of the king to trust.

There are 2 sides about how to role-play puzzles: Player decision vs. Character aptitude. I think a well-crafted puzzle challenges players but can be more easily overcome based on character aptitude. My bias is I prefer a balance of both player imagination and modeling character intelligence/skill.

4e design philosophy embraces: (1) All players involved all the time, (2) Hazards/traps don't just require a roll, but require a series of checks coupled with decision-making, (3) Most hazards/traps still pertinent even with access to flying & teleportation magic at higher levels, (4) Other hazards/traps can swap out with monsters to make combat more difficult, and (5) Minimize dice rolling (when possible).

How would a 4e puzzle look?

Tomb of the Barrow Kings (Puzzle, timed)
Trapped inside a tomb, the PCs must uncover the mystery of its construction to gain their freedom before flash floods drown them.

At the base of granite foothills, the barrow mounds sit in an old river valley filled with alder and willow trees. Here are buried the unnamed kings of bygone days who assassinated the High Priest of Pelor and were cursed to never attain the afterlife. Over the years, the barrows were forgotten and were overgrown by the untended wilds.

The Dark: Though the Barrow Kings were entombed under the supervision of Pelorites, surviving followers were able to build enchantments into the tomb that would warn future generations of the treachery of the High Priest of Pelor.

Hints: Hints may be gained in several ways: (1) Divination magic, (2) Superior planning and research, or (3) Spending an action point. A PC may only gain a number of hints equal to their Intelligence modifier (+0 means no hints for you), regardless of how they get the hints.

(Arcana)
(History/Lore)
(Nature)
(Religion)

Encounter: Tomb of the Barrow Kings counts as an elite opponent during combat encounters, effectively replacing 2 normal monsters. Suitable monsters include barrow wights, crypt guardians, wraiths, ghosts, and skeletons.

How to get the PCs involved:
* While exploring the barrow mounds, the PCs fall into the tomb through a pit trap.
* Betrayed by the recently murdered king's vizier, the PCs are locked inside the tomb while paying their respects.
* As relatives of the recently murdered king, it is cultural expectation that the PCs will be buried alive with the king in his ancestors' tomb.
* Having hidden themselves within the tomb, the PCs wait for the funeral procession to end so they can steal a relic.
* Facing overwhelming enemies, the PCs find themselves pinned down inside the tomb. Will it become their grave too?

Timed: This puzzle must be solved before flash floods begin. If flash floods don't suit your campaign geography/time of year, you could substitute running out of water, enemies invading the tomb, or the annual awakening of the dreaded Barrow Kings.

Breaking Points: Teleportation & earth shaping magics can allow the PCs to escape, though they won't learn about the Barrow Kings.

EDIT: the full puzzle coming...

 

[DonTadow]

Sounds interesting, but do you reward XP to one person for getting the answer right or is it group thing? Personally, I love puzzles.

I don't reward XP as according to the book. I"ve always felt d and d is a team based game and XP is rewarded and split as a team. However, if the players think that solving that puzzle was the most significant thing that session, they can vote for them for player of the game and they receive extra xp for winning that.