D&D 5E PvP Class Comparisons

Herschel

Adventurer
So essentially in a good system PCs mustn't kill each other because they need each other in the next and future adventures? Really?

Close. A good system is designed around the characters working together because otherwise there's no reason to adventure together. The PCs would realize they need the other PCs to succeed long-term.

Iow, PvP is a terrible criteria to design around in a cooperative game by definition.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
It shouldn't be that surprising. With every class having a different focus, especially when it comes to combat... any single type or style of fight will have a couple classes be head-and-shoulders better than the rest.

When its 1 PC vs 1 PC out in the open with nothing to hide behind, the fighter or barbarian has an advantage. When its 1 PC vs 1 PC from a hidden position with lots of cover, the rogue or ranger will. When its 1 PC vs a group of PCs, the wizard and other area of effect casters are always better as the single combatant.

But this is really nothing than can or should be "corrected" for the game itself. Because you'd have to change how every class performs in combat so that no one playing field, number of players, or style of fight gives anyone any advantage against each other. But that turns everyone into carbon copies of each other.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
I'm also of the opinion that PvP has never been a 'playstyle' that any edition of D&D has supported well. That does not mean it could not and was not done, of course. But I don't think it has been a major design goal of D&D in the past, nor should it be in the future. As others have said, it would constrain the design to much, and would perhaps lead to a 4e type 'everyone-feels-the-same' type of design that many rail against (whether true or not).

Now having said that, I don't want to be dismissive of the original post or the PvP play style. Such problems revealed here could also manifest in similar play styles (i.e. combat heavy) and could be useful in highlighting potential flaws in the system. I'm curious what the details of play session where. From the mentions of bounded accuracy I surmise that it was a fighter-type that 'went rogue' (no pun intended) and the rest of the party had a difficult time dealing with this? I would like to know what the classes in question were and which were perceived as weak in this scenario. Was it a simple 'surprise, I'm whipping out my sword and hacking you in two' situation? Inquiring minds want to know.
 

Argyle King

Legend
Because mature adults don't just try to kill people they disagree with. Adventurers get where they get because of the party working together (and should realize this) in a well-designed system. That means negotiating, manipulation, heck ,even trickery but the short-term gain of killing party members is not worth it in a good system because the PC needs those other guys for the next and future adventures.

Except, in that particular adventure, the different factions had no problem with killing one-another if need be.

Yes, negotiating, manipulation, and even trickery are tools which can be used. However, a knife in the back isn't out of the question either, and, in fact, part of the plot revolved around the mystery of a murder, so it's not as though it would have been unusual given the setting and motivations of various factions.

From the point of view of my character, even if I did negotiate, it makes little sense for me to adventure into life threatening dungeons with people I know are working for rival organizations who have in the past orchestrated plots against the group I work for. In world where adventuring is a profession, wouldn't hiring other adventurers be an option?
 

Herschel

Adventurer
Except, in that particular adventure, the different factions had no problem with killing one-another if need be.
It was also the last session of Encounters so there is no "future", which makes it a lot easier.

From the point of view of my character, even if I did negotiate, it makes little sense for me to adventure into life threatening dungeons with people I know are working for rival organizations who have in the past orchestrated plots against the group I work for.
Exactly, so why were were you adventuring together in the first place if you know you can't trust them?

In world where adventuring is a profession, wouldn't hiring other adventurers be an option?

Would you trust mercs more than you would actual allies? It works okay for Encounters and one-shots but in a game where "campaigns" are the design norm/goal, PvP is an abberation.
 

Argyle King

Legend
It shouldn't be that surprising. With every class having a different focus, especially when it comes to combat... any single type or style of fight will have a couple classes be head-and-shoulders better than the rest.

When its 1 PC vs 1 PC out in the open with nothing to hide behind, the fighter or barbarian has an advantage. When its 1 PC vs 1 PC from a hidden position with lots of cover, the rogue or ranger will. When its 1 PC vs a group of PCs, the wizard and other area of effect casters are always better as the single combatant.

But this is really nothing than can or should be "corrected" for the game itself. Because you'd have to change how every class performs in combat so that no one playing field, number of players, or style of fight gives anyone any advantage against each other. But that turns everyone into carbon copies of each other.

That may be true of D&D (for some reason I'm not clear about,) but I don't accept that as a universal truth when it comes to game or rpg design. I don't accept that because it's not at all true in other rpgs I play; even some of the rpgs I play which have a much wider variety of character types possible than D&D. Certainly, in those games, the situation, terrain, and other factors may give one particular 'build' (for a lack of better words) an advantage in specific situation or specific group of situations, but that same build might very well struggle in different circumstances. Other games I've played have pulled off (and done it very well) the idea that PCs are stronger when together and fill different niches while still having less disparity when the PCs come to blows. Though, to be fair, those games aren't D&D; D&D isn't one of those games, and the design considerations between D&D and the games I have in mind are drastically different. Still, my point is that it can be done, and I believe that having a concept such as bounded accuracy makes it more possible; not less. Then again, 5th's meaning of bounded accuracy isn't exactly what I thought I meant by the term when it was first mentioned. Though, even that doesn't change that it's possible to have a team game which still allows for characters to feel more even when faced with each other. I don't suggest D&D should do that; I merely suggest that doing it is possible, and I expected the current edition to be closer to that rather than further away from it.


I'm also of the opinion that PvP has never been a 'playstyle' that any edition of D&D has supported well. That does not mean it could not and was not done, of course. But I don't think it has been a major design goal of D&D in the past, nor should it be in the future. As others have said, it would constrain the design to much, and would perhaps lead to a 4e type 'everyone-feels-the-same' type of design that many rail against (whether true or not).

Now having said that, I don't want to be dismissive of the original post or the PvP play style. Such problems revealed here could also manifest in similar play styles (i.e. combat heavy) and could be useful in highlighting potential flaws in the system. I'm curious what the details of play session where. From the mentions of bounded accuracy I surmise that it was a fighter-type that 'went rogue' (no pun intended) and the rest of the party had a difficult time dealing with this? I would like to know what the classes in question were and which were perceived as weak in this scenario. Was it a simple 'surprise, I'm whipping out my sword and hacking you in two' situation? Inquiring minds want to know.

Basically, this is how the final encounter went...

The party got to the encounter with the Ice Witch. One of the barbarians in the party felt that some of the people from the towns should be made to suffer and didn't particularly feel the Witch's plan should be stopped. He cut a deal to join her side.

I don't know exact numbers of his character, but I can say he was a mix of Barbarian and Fighter, and focused on two-weapon fighting. His style was basically to throw out as many attacks as he could and then add the rage bonus to all of them.

On the 'good' side; trying to stop the Witch, was my character (halfing rogue/monk mentioned in other threads,) a barbarian, a wizard, a fighter, and a cleric. The wizard -not surprisingly- went down very quickly. What was more surprising was that the regular barbarian also went down rather easily when engaged in a toe-to-toe fight with the traitor. While the regular barbarian was dealing far more damage when he hit, he was getting less attacks. The traitor, between having advantage via rage and a multitude of attacks from TWF had multiple rolls with which to fish for criticals; he also easily made up for his single attacks doing less damage by being able to stack his rage damage bonus on all of the attacks. After dropping both the wizard and the barbarian, the traitor then moved onto my character. The only thing which saved me was that I had a much higher AC (17) than some of the other party members in spite of the fact that I was not wearing armor due to having a high dex and a respectable wis. Really though, even with that, it was just poor rolling on the part of the traitor. I could, to some extend, match the amount of attacks he was putting out, but his damage was higher, and he was still raging and such got advantage on his attacks. In the end, I won out, but just barely, and I contribute it more to his poor rolling toward the end of the session more than anything else.

Had his rolling been marginally better, he would have very likely dropped my character. Then, at that was left was a cleric who was ill suited for melee, and the fighter who had already been badly wounded earlier in the fight. One PC would have very likely killed the rest of the party. While I understand that PvP is not a design consideration for D&D, something about that scenario still seems wrong to me. A lot of things about that scenario still seem wrong to me, and I don't believe it all boils down to "well, that guy wasn't playing D&D right."
 

Herschel

Adventurer
Which is why multi-attacks can be strong in every edition. It's not about single-swing damage, it's about applying the most damage instances when modifiers are used. Actual "weapon" damage becomes almost moot when modifiers reach around 1/4 of the weapon die if you multi-attack.
 

Ichneumon

First Post
If intra-party combat is your thing, have at it, but as far as balance is concerned, you're on your own. The D&D Next developers won't - and shouldn't - modify the game just in case the PCs want to take chunks out of each other.

An optional skirmish mini-game module, where small groups of PCs battle against each other, could be the way to go. If avatar versions of the PCs are used, that could help keep things balanced.
 

Argyle King

Legend
It was also the last session of Encounters so there is no "future", which makes it a lot easier.

Exactly, so why were were you adventuring together in the first place if you know you can't trust them?



Would you trust mercs more than you would actual allies? It works okay for Encounters and one-shots but in a game where "campaigns" are the design norm/goal, PvP is an abberation.

1) True, but there's no reason I couldn't use that adventure in a home game. In fact, I honestly believe Murder would have made a far better module for a home game than for Encounters. As an Encounters season, it seemed very forced, and it often felt that the adventure would more or less turn out the same way no matter what I did as my character.

2) I'm honestly not sure. The beginning of the Murder was the first time I had attended Encounters. I thought it might make more sense as time when on, but it didn't. Since I was the new guy at the table at the time, I just sorta put my brain on autopilot and coasted through. I was more interested in seeing how the mechanics of 5th Edition worked and whether it was a game I was interested in buying.

3) Possibly. If "actual allies" are known agents of a rival organization which I suspect may not have a problem with murdering me, it might not be entirely out of the question to rely on the gilded loyalty of mercenaries.

All things considered, if I had had things my way during Murder In Balder's Gate, the character I was playing at the time would have simply left the city and went elsewhere. It hardly seemed worth the bother, and most of the dealings I had with the various factions made me inclined to believe that perhaps they deserved whatever happened.
 

Argyle King

Legend
If intra-party combat is your thing, have at it, but as far as balance is concerned, you're on your own. The D&D Next developers won't - and shouldn't - modify the game just in case the PCs want to take chunks out of each other.

An optional skirmish mini-game module, where small groups of PCs battle against each other, could be the way to go. If avatar versions of the PCs are used, that could help keep things balanced.



One question I have is what happens if PC class abilities are given to monsters? It's not unheard of to advance an Orc to an Orc Fighter or Orc Barbarian or some other class. To some limited degree, doing so was even still possible in 4th Edition, and there were (at times) some rather significant differences between adding one of the DMG's class templates onto a monster when compared to using one of the other templates. As far as 5th goes, I do recall a similar topic coming up in a previous WoTC article. Sadly, I cannot remember when or where; I'm even willing to accept that perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I do believe it was mentioned that adding class abilities to monsters would be an option for advancing creatures. In such a case, I'd argue that taking a few notes from PvP would help the design.
 

Remove ads

Top