Q about massive con damage.

[Artoomis]

kreynolds:

It took me a few minutes to find the flaw in your argument:

"A hit point score can't be reduced by Consitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. At 7th level, Mialee has 22 hit points when fully healed. Even if her Consititution score drops to 5 or lower, she will still have at least 7 hit points (less any damage she may take).

You need to realize that the "still have 7 hit points" is refering to her score when fully healed. Thus, the "less any damage she may take" makes perfect sense - the example situation is that she has no damage at all.

 

[kreynolds]

You need to realize that the "still have 7 hit points" is refering to her score when fully healed.

I'm still not convinced, and I don't see the flaw in my argument that you refer to. Your consitution score is part of what defines your maximum hit points (except for things like temporary hit points, etc). If your Con drops, naturally, your maximum hit points drop. I don't see any precedent in the system, even in 3.0, that a drop in Con deals hit point damage beyond your maximum.

Take a wizard with a full array of spells, for example. Intelligence is part of what defines your maximum spellcasting capacity for a wizard. If his Int drops enough, he'll lose some bonus spell slots. If those slots have already been cast from though, he doesn't lose those bonus slots _and_ lose some unused normal slots simply because the slots he lost were used already. His maximum spellcasting capacity simply decreases for the day. He would still have his normal spell slots, but not those bonus spell slots.

I'm not ignoring the example stating that Mialee is fully healed at the time of her Con loss. I just haven't seen any substantial evidence that I've got this all wrong yet.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly."

"When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence."

Note that the first line refers to hit points, not just to maximum hit points.

I don't have the books, so I can't find any of the little hidden gems that frequently pop up, though.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

I'm still not convinced, and I don't see the flaw in my argument that you refer to. Your consitution score is part of what defines your maximum hit points (except for things like temporary hit points, etc). If your Con drops, naturally, your maximum hit points drop. I don't see any precedent in the system, even in 3.0, that a drop in Con deals hit point damage beyond your maximum.

Okay let's try this another way.

Your max hit points change - we all agree on that, right?

A drop in max hit points certainly does not deal any hit point damage at all. It only changes the max you could have.

Okay, so let's see....

If I have 50 max, and then take, say, 49 hit points in damage. Con damage no reduces my max to, say 10.

Result - I should be dead (at -89)! If not, then somehow the Con damage actually HEALED me because I'd have FEWER hit points of damage than I had before the con damage.

But, just for a moment, let's say you end up still at 1 hit point. Okay, fine. Then a Restoration is cast and you max hit points return to 50. How many hit points do you have? Surely not 41, for then what happened to the 49 hit points of damage you took? Also, surely not still 1 point, for your max just went up back to 50, effectively giving you 40 new hit points.

Convinced yet?

 

[ThirdWizard]

The main thing is that when you take constitution damage, you lose hp retroactively. Say, if a 3 hd creature takes 2 con damage, that creature loses 3 hp.

The rule basically says that every level, no matter what your con modifier is, you always go up by at least 1 hp, regardless. And, your max hp can thus never be below your hit dice, even through retroactive constitution loss.

Now, since when you take con damage, your current hp drops, would it make sense that it would not apply past a certain point? In other words, a 5 hit die creature takes 2 constitution damage will lose 5 hp if he has 40, dropping him to 35. Why would the same creature currently at 7 hp drop to 5 hp and not drop to 2 hp? The answer is that the creature does in fact drop to 2 hp, but can be healed up to the current max that is defined by the constitution.

 

[kreynolds]

Okay let's try this another way.

Your max hit points change - we all agree on that, right?

Yup.

A drop in max hit points certainly does not deal any hit point damage at all. It only changes the max you could have.

Okay, so let's see....

If I have 50 max, and then take, say, 49 hit points in damage. Con damage no reduces my max to, say 10.

Result - I should be dead (at -89)!

No. You started with 50 hit points. You were reduced to 1 hit point from damage. Your Con was then reduced, thereby lowering your maximum hit points to 10. So, you now have a max of 10 hit points and a current hit point total of 1. Why? Because Con loss can't reduce you below 1 hit point per hit die.

Convinced yet?

Nope.

 

[kreynolds]

The main thing is that when you take constitution damage, you lose hp retroactively.

Absolutely, if your current hit point total would be higher than your new maximum.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Absolutely, if your current hit point total would be higher than your new maximum.

Which makes an item that drops your Con to 2 a fabulous healing device.

I'm a Fighter-10 with a max hit points, excluding my Con bonus, of 60. With my 16 Con, my Max is 90.

I've been damaged down to 5 hit points.

I put on my Armband of Sucky Constitution; my Max drops to 20 (60, with a -4 Con penalty on 10 hit dice). This is higher than my current, and my current is below my number of Hit Dice, so by Kreynolds' Law, my current hit points are unchanged.

I take off the Armband; my Con jumps back up to 16, my Max jumps back up to 90, and my current jumps to 75.

I put the Armband back on; Max drops to 20, dragging current down with it.

Armband off; Max and current both return to 90.

Thank you, Armband of Sucky Constitution - I feel better now!

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

No. You started with 50 hit points. You were reduced to 1 hit point from damage. Your Con was then reduced, thereby lowering your maximum hit points to 10. So, you now have a max of 10 hit points and a current hit point total of 1. Why? Because Con loss can't reduce you below 1 hit point per hit die.

Okay, I am at 1 hit point. Now I get a Restoration. This gives my 40 more hits points - now I am at 41!! Wait... how did that happen?!?!

See Hypersmurf's post above for this taken to it's logical (but ludicrous) conclusion.

Do you see how this is silly, to say the least?

 

[Caliban]

Sorry kreynolds, your wrong in this instance.

Max hit points per die is different than damage taken.

When your Con is increased (as with barbarian rage) and you then take damage, you still have that damage when the increased Con goes away.

Same thing with Con damage: If you have hit point damage and then lose Con points, you still have that damage, and you have less overall hit points.