Q. Rogue/Fighter Nudity?

[Ywain]

You don't expect me to read all of the previous posts, do you?

Good.

I am not a prude. (And I live in a place where it is perfectly legal for women to walk the streets topless. Some even do so.) The pictures in question do not offend me on their own merits.

What I have problems with is the infantilization of the hobby. I mean, RPGs are considered by many to be the last refuge of 13 year old geeks and images like this only give credence to these assertions. It is silly to get into the hairsplitting of "She's draped so it isn't nudity, therefore it is better than nudity." The fact of the matter is that the images in question are really just there for the T&A and would serve the same purpose with or without the drapery. I call it the Chainmail Bikini Factor -- staying on the safe side of any technical definitions of nudity, while existing soley for titilation. (tee hee, he said titilation).

Every time my wife leafs through a book like this and sees the Chainmail Bikini Factor she just shakes her head and sighs. Wehn she leafed through the 3e PHB, she was pleasantly surprised at the lack of CBF. In a few years my daughter is going to be old enough to learn the game and I don't want her being put off by the pics when she reads my rule books -- or worse, telling me to "grow up".

If the hobby is to be taken seriously, individual publishers have to take responsibility for the maturity of their works. Joke publications like, The Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming or Hackmaster, are lighthearted enough that salacious pics could be taken as irony -- but in a straight supplement it just undermines what little credibility the game has. In the long run, that can't be good for business.

 

[The Lemon Merchant]

And he who is holy, yeah the most holy of holy, his holiness the Most Holy Wombat did come down from his dwelling in the Dreamtime and did say unto me, his most holy archiver, <dweefle>. And I was struck dumb for I knew not what had caused he who is most holy to come down and rap me on the knot. Yeah and again he said unto me <Dweefle> and the light of understanding poured into my mind through the lump that was beginning to form on it. Lo I did look upon this thread and my curiousity did burn and so I quickly went unto my local gaming store and did aquire a copy of the Q Rogue, for I was greatly impressed with the Q Fighter and wanted to see what useful content it did contain. And yeah I was scandalized by the artistic depiction of women and had to go back and check out my Q Fighter to see if this artist had been paid for his cheesecake in two books. And lo, I beheld that it was true and thus I became aware of what had so roused the Most Holy Wombat from his slumber. Taking upon myself the holy quest to purify the minds and bodies of those who enjoy this hobby I quickly rushed out and purchased all 5 copies of Q Rogue in order to seal them in the holy vault with my many Avalanche Press products and copies of Maxim, Stuff and Playboy. And it was thus that I did return to my Playstation 2 where I was diligently working on getting all of the skimpy outfits for the female snowboarders in SSX Tricky, so that I could thus seal that memory card away in righteous indignation when he who is most holy did come down again and rap me upon the knot. And he said unto me <DWEEFLE> and I know I had made a most grevious mistake, for he had not wanted me to take upon a holy quest to purify others as such things are hopeless and I should learn to let people make their own choices and remember that if they don't like it they don't have to buy it. Yeah instead he had just wanted to make sure I got a copy before they sold out as he had forseen that the series would be a smashing success and didn't want me to miss out. As penance I did go and remove the 5 copies from the holy vault and did give them to my friends so that they too would not miss out.

A Humbled Holy Archiver
For other Wombat writings if you are interested

 

[The It's Man]

We see an art critic examining a nude painting. He sees the camera and starts talking guiltily.

Good evening. I'd like to talk to you tonight about the place of the nude in my bed ... um ... in the history of my bed ... of art, of art, I'm sorry. The place of the nude in the history of tart... call-girl... I'm sorry. I'll start again... Bum ... oh what a giveaway. The place of the nude in art.

A seductively dressed girl enters slinkily

Oh hello there father, er confessor, professor, your honour, your grace ...

-- I'm not your Grace, I'm your Elsie.

What a terrible joke!

-- But it's my only line!

Cut to an idyllic countryside. Birds sing etc. as the camera starts a lyrical pan across the fields.

BUT THERE LET US LEAVE THE ART CRITIC TO STRANGLE HIS WIFE AND MOVE ON TO PASTURES NEW

 

[The Sigil]

Nudity - Art or Porn?

Now, I don't want to start some kind of a flamewar here so I'll just point out that in General it is only in North America that there seems to be a real problem with it. In Europe it is a part of normal daily life. The fitness magazines here have more topless pictures than some skin mags in North America.

I lived in Europe for a couple of years... heck, billboards in Europe have more topless pictures than some skin mags...

That said, I will make my point and be done.

IMO, the question to be considered when determining whether or not this sort of thing is offensive is not necessarily, "is the picture sexually explicit?" The question is, "is the picture relevant to the surrounding text?"

1.) If the picture is relevant to the accompanying text, a very good argument can be made that "this is art, not porn" - everyone has a different view of what does and does not constitute porn - I'll go back to "I can't define obscenity, but I know it when I see it." For example, when I crack open a book (like, say the MM) to read about a Succubus or a Nymph, I fully expect scantily-clad to unclad women to accompany these entries. If I read about Aphrodite in a deities supplement, I should expect to see the same type of thing (Venus de Milo, anyone?) If I'm reading about "new uses for Skills" like Disguise or Bluff (infiltration via sexuality), I might expect to see such a thing. If I'm reading a treatise on a culture where this is acceptable (e.g., ancient Egypt), I might expect to see it. "Expect" meaning not that I will be disappointed if I don't, but rather that I won't be surprised if I do.

(Aside We Americans do seem to have a thing about womens' nipples (I found it funny that in the Victoria's Secret special on primetime US Network TV, they went to great lengths to block out nipples showing through sheer clothing, yet pubic hair was quite visible). Apparently, Americans' "hard and fast" (no pun intended) criteria for pornography is "are the nipples visible?" The absurdity (or common sense) of this question is not something worth debating here.

2.) If the text in the vicinity of the picture has nothing to do with the accompanying text, I would say in that case, it is NOT art, but is instead intended to titilate (sp? - and again, no pun intended). When I'm flipping through MM entries for Dire Bears and Dire Tigers, I don't expect to see cleavage, for example. In these cases, it seems fairly clear that the intent of the author is "cheesecake" (or whatever it be called) as opposed to genuine artistic illustration and should be treated as such. I *don't* expect to see things like that in "weapons and you - a guide to lethal combat" or "how to pick a lock" or "spellthrowing 101 - friendly fire." Why don't I expect to see it in these instances? Because it is not relevant and IMO, if it is not relevant it should not be included under the guise of art (and it is a guise, not the real thing IMO).

"Mature" treatement of subject matter does not equal "if we throw in nudity you should not be offended," nor does it mean "we are above nudity because we are so mature therefore your including it shows your childish immaturity because you are pandering to baser instincts." Rather, it means that everything included is included for the purpose of enabling you to better understand/visualize what is going on. Out of context, nudity can be (and usually is) distracting and often detracts from an understanding/visualization of the text (because the reader is too busy trying to visualize something else). In proper context, nudity CAN be helpful.

Similarly, "immature" treatment of subject matter is neither "if it's got nudity it must be immature because it's all juvenile voyeurism" but neither is it "if you can't handle the human body you are obviously immature." Immature treatment of subject matter is throwing in things disingenuously. Adding nudity to a book on alchemy is immature. Giving a 1st-level character the ability to hurl fireballs is immature. Categorically excluding even chainmail bikinis from "acceptable artwork in books" is immature.

IOW, Context is everything.

Now, I don't know the context in which this illustration was used (still haven't seen the book). But I know when I do, I will be able to quickly make a judgement based on the above criteria as to whether or not it is "cheesecake" or "art." Why? Because I think the criteria are fairly simply defined above. Unlike most on the thread, I have taken no stand on the "Mongoose's Nudity is Bad/Good" issue - I have simply tried to provide a mature and systematic treatment for determining whether something is Bad/Good - IOW, I have tried to solve the general case rather than the specific case.

Granted, the amount of nudity that one might be able to "stomach" will vary. For some, nipples should not even be shown. For others, full close-up nudity is not considered a problem. It boils down to individual morals/ethics/taste/whatever you wish to name it.

Because of that I have not tried to "draw a line" as to what is/is not obscene - that's a judgement call - I have instead tried to come up with a set of criteria that lets us differentiate "art" from "gratuitous nudity."

Flame on. :b

--The Sigil

 

[jkantor]

Whatever you do, don't read "Subliminal Seduction" - you'll have a tizzy fit.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

This thead, to me, is ridiculous! Naked damsels in distress are a staple of the fantasy genre---naked babes being menaced by aliens, monsters, midgets, mad scientists and miscellaneous freaks have been used to sell just about every genre of fantastic fiction (sci-fi, mystery, horror, fantasy...) at one point or another.

I for one, like looking at naked babes, whether in peril or "in control" of dangerous situations. As long as they're naked, or nearly so (or dressed provocatively, like 7 of 9). They excite me and make me want to play the game more. They should excite any other heterosexual male who looks at them. If they don't, then I would say that dude has more pressing problems than just disliking a particular image...

At the other end, why do you think women's romance novel covers objectify hunky, stripped down men? Sex sells, people, regardless of gender.

I can't believe some of you want to impose your Politically Correct agenda on our hobby and kill off one of its sacred cows. Haven't you done enough damage with such radical thinking to the rest of our planet? RPGs are one of the few outlets left where you can be free to express yourself in a non-PC, fantasy environment.

I don't want "PC" people in my real life, I don't want them in my fantasy game, and I certainly don't want them trying to dictate corporate policy among the RPG companies!

RPGs are perhaps the last bastion of red-blooded he-man entertainment. Of course, the "he-men" are only the characters in the game... Sitting around the table are a fat, bearded, smelly guy who's never been kissed and a 98 pound weakling popping pimples and squinting through his glasses at the dice, trying to figure out if he rolled a "6" or a "9."

 

[Reynard]

I don't really care about the whole "nipples-in-RPG-products" debate (I think the whole argument is silly - art creates mood and if the company wants a mood that includes bared breasts, so be it). rather, it just reminded me of an interesting thing i read in this month's Playboy: The Justice Department spent $8000 on a set of custom cutains whith which to hide the stature of Silent Justice (I think that is the name of the statue) because John Ashcroft was ofended by her one bared breast. this is a man who holds one of the highest offices in the executive branch of the US Government. He is married with kids and well into his "goilden years". yet, he can't manage to be in the same room with a *statue* of a naked woman.

There is something very wrong with american morals.

 

[Reynard]

Oh yeah, I forgot - the topless elf babe in the Scarred Lands screen was not only perfectly appropriate given the culture it was attempting to depict, but also darn cute.

 

[hong]

I for one, like looking at naked babes, whether in peril or "in control" of dangerous situations. As long as they're naked, or nearly so (or dressed provocatively, like 7 of 9). They excite me and make me want to play the game more.

Being excited by naked or provocatively dressed women makes you want to play D&D?

Now that's dedication.

 

[Nightfall]

Don't know about you hong, but I call that a little too much time on your hands.

If people REALLY wanted to get worked up about something, they should try the OTHER SL meat, meaning the Handmaidens of Tanil, a sect of miltiant lesbians dedicated to acheiving perfection by reproducing asexually...sort of. *is kidding of course*

As for the wood elf, hey not like I care that much for elves. Now Charduni, that's different!