Q: Shadow Evocation
- Thread starter Jens
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Ciaran
First Post
Well, here's another question: if someone researches a new evocation spell of a level castable with Shadow Evocation (like, say a 10' radius fireball), can you suddenly use Shadow Evocation to cast that spell? Even if you don't know that the new spell exists? After all, the new spell does fall within Shadow Evocation's parameters, and so you should be able to duplicate it. But in that case, it should be possible to duplicate the new evocation spell even before it's been researched...
The "Shadow [insert school here]" spells really could use a rewrite. Something allowing you to make a Shadow version of any *possible* spell of the desired school, but you have to do research for *each* spell you want to do a Shadow version of. Or something.
- Eric
The "Shadow [insert school here]" spells really could use a rewrite. Something allowing you to make a Shadow version of any *possible* spell of the desired school, but you have to do research for *each* spell you want to do a Shadow version of. Or something.
- Eric
Lucius Foxhound
First Post
Hmmm. We haven't talked about this in our campaign.
As far as I know, my DM won't allow MoF, FRCS, or BOEM spells to be used like this ... since the spell is flexible enough as it is, you only get the choice of 1st - 4th level spells in the PHB.
But since you're just forming an evocation spell from "shadow stuff," there's no reason you shouldn't be able to form it into any spell you know.
As far as I know, my DM won't allow MoF, FRCS, or BOEM spells to be used like this ... since the spell is flexible enough as it is, you only get the choice of 1st - 4th level spells in the PHB.
But since you're just forming an evocation spell from "shadow stuff," there's no reason you shouldn't be able to form it into any spell you know.
The most reasonable thing I can think of is to say that a Shadow spell can emulate any spell the caster is aware of/has experienced.
It's assumed (though I suppose this isn't WRITTEN anywhere) that an arcane caster is aware of all the spells in the PHB, as well as any non-core spells that the game permits in the setting (that aren't otherwise kept secret).
So if, as DM, I say in the setting doc, "You can use any spells from PHB, T&B, and BOEM," then it's fair to say all those spells are known by any arcane caster with Knowledge (Arcana). They're public domain spells.
By that logic, if a character researches a spell that obeys the strictures for a Shadow spell, he can be said to know it, and thus to adapt the Shadow spell to emulate it.
Similarly, I'd say if a character can study a custom spell (perhaps in a captured spellbook), or has experienced it in combat, he could also then pattern a Shadow spell to emulate it...if it fit into the appropriate guidelines.
A mean GM might require the character to fail his save though...and thus experience that spell at its absolute worst magnitude. If you make your save you're not REALLY experiencing the full monty, after all.
It's assumed (though I suppose this isn't WRITTEN anywhere) that an arcane caster is aware of all the spells in the PHB, as well as any non-core spells that the game permits in the setting (that aren't otherwise kept secret).
So if, as DM, I say in the setting doc, "You can use any spells from PHB, T&B, and BOEM," then it's fair to say all those spells are known by any arcane caster with Knowledge (Arcana). They're public domain spells.
By that logic, if a character researches a spell that obeys the strictures for a Shadow spell, he can be said to know it, and thus to adapt the Shadow spell to emulate it.
Similarly, I'd say if a character can study a custom spell (perhaps in a captured spellbook), or has experienced it in combat, he could also then pattern a Shadow spell to emulate it...if it fit into the appropriate guidelines.
A mean GM might require the character to fail his save though...and thus experience that spell at its absolute worst magnitude. If you make your save you're not REALLY experiencing the full monty, after all.
Byrons_Ghost
First Post
Come to think of it, the illusionist IMC has been complaining because the shadow spells don't seem to do all that much (that and they get two saving throws for some reason, which seems to happen only with illusions as far as I can tell). Now, I'll be the first to admit that this person can't play an illusionist for squat, but it seems to me that allowing some more variance in the parameters of the spell might make things a little more balancing. Sort of like the fact that you're trading a fifth-level spell slot for any third level spell you need at the time.
So the variance for Shadow Conjuration would be pretty easy, just allow them to summon more monsters, come up with some sort of alternate list- creatures with the shadow template, etc.
The Shadow Evocation is a bit trickier, I think that allowing them total control of the spell's parameters would be way too tough. I could see letting them alter a single thing from the following list: range, area of effect, or energy type.
Anyone have any comments/ideas? Or should I just tell my whiny players to shut up and eat it?
So the variance for Shadow Conjuration would be pretty easy, just allow them to summon more monsters, come up with some sort of alternate list- creatures with the shadow template, etc.
The Shadow Evocation is a bit trickier, I think that allowing them total control of the spell's parameters would be way too tough. I could see letting them alter a single thing from the following list: range, area of effect, or energy type.
Anyone have any comments/ideas? Or should I just tell my whiny players to shut up and eat it?
Ciaran
First Post
I'd say that if they come up with a spell design that could be legitimately researched as a spell of sufficiently low level to be emulated, they can emulate it. They just have to come up with it beforehand, not on the fly in the middle of combat. Maybe it'll take 1 day of research and a successful Spellcraft check, but with no monetary cost.
Let the illusionists cast a wall of lightning or fire fog if they want to and it's not too powerful. After all, the targets get an additional Will save, and the Shadow spell is lower level than if they'd actually bothered to prepare a real evocation spell. I can't see this as being overpowered. If anyone has experience with unbalanced Shadow magic, please chime in here to let us know!
- Eric
Let the illusionists cast a wall of lightning or fire fog if they want to and it's not too powerful. After all, the targets get an additional Will save, and the Shadow spell is lower level than if they'd actually bothered to prepare a real evocation spell. I can't see this as being overpowered. If anyone has experience with unbalanced Shadow magic, please chime in here to let us know!
- Eric
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