Q: Staying hidden with Fleeting Ghost?

[Wiggimuck]

Here are the rules for staying hidden:

Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must
make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If
any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t
remain hidden from that enemy.

My question is can one use Fleeting Ghost and Secret Stride while staying hidden? These powers allows you to move full speed without the -5 penalty. But according the errata rules as written, if you move more than 2 squares you are no longer hidden. If makes Fleeting Ghost and Secret Stride only useful during the intial attempt to hide. In other words, you can hide with them but you can't sneak.

I personally don't like the rules as written and think it was an oversight that went along with the errata of the stealth skill. The intent of the Fleeting Ghost and Secret Stride are to be both fast and stealthy, but the errata has cut out most of that function.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Fleeting ghost allows you to move your movement and make a stealth check. You take no penalty for movement. It is the "hide" power.

Shadow Stride allows you to move and make a stealth check to remain hidden along the length of your movement regardless of lack of cover along your path, though you need cover at your end-point. You have to be hidden already to use Shadow Stride. You take no penalty for movement. It is the "sneak" power.

Secret Stride is a feat that allows you to ignore the -5 penalty for movement any time you move to hide or sneak, but it grants none of the additional benefits of the powers.

The Stealth skill excerpt you quoted is making a check, with a penalty for moving more than 2 squares to remain hidden. It doesn't mean you become visible, then hide again.

So, you could use Fleeting Ghost to move into a square and make a Stealth check, taking no penalty on the roll. If you did it in a square that had at least cover or concealment, you would remain hidden. Then, you could either move your speed again, making a check at -5 to remain hidden (unless you have the Secret Stride feat which allows you to make the check with no penalty), or, if you have Shadow Stride, move your speed again, taking no penalty, with the additional benefit of not needing to remain in cover along the path of your movement.

They work better than they read.

 

[Keenath]

Yeah, the stealth powers are a little confusing. ISP's got it pretty much right.

Fleeting Ghost doesn't give you any special abilities; it doesn't change the way stealth works; it just removes the penalty for moving fast. The Secret Stride feat seems to be exactly the same except you can't run.

Chameleon works when you are already hidden, and something happens outside of your turn that causes you to lose hiding -- such as an enemy walking around the corner or turning on the lights.

Shadow Stride gives you the Fleeting Ghost benefit, PLUS if you use it successfully, you're hidden for the whole distance you moved -- so you can dash across a fully lighted hallway right in front of the guards, starting and ending with total cover, and they won't see a thing.

 

[Wiggimuck]

Thanks, that clears it up for me. The important thing is that having to make another stealth check doesn't mean you become unhidden. I'm looking forward to getting Shadow Stride and walking right under monsters' noses.

 

[Drakhar]

such as an enemy walking around the corner or turning on the lights.

And now I have this image of a kobold entering a room where the PCs are all hiding and hitting a light switch to seem them all and it makes my brain cry.

The way I understand it once you're stealthed any further stealth checks you make, such as when you move to another location, are simply to remain hidden and to move silently, you only have to rehide so to speak when something causes you to lose your stealth in the first place.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Yeah, the stealth powers are a little confusing. ISP's got it pretty much right.

Fleeting Ghost doesn't give you any special abilities; it doesn't change the way stealth works; it just removes the penalty for moving fast. The Secret Stride feat seems to be exactly the same except you can't run.

Not exactly. Fleeting Ghost allows you to make a Stealth check, which means you can use it when you don't have Superior Cover or Total Concealment. With the change in the Stealth rules for remaining hidden, that doesn't benefit you unless you end in a space that provides cover or concealment, not from an ally, to remain hidden. You only ignore the -5 penalty on the check made via the power. You can't run as part of Fleeting Ghost either, you move your speed.

If you're already hidden, the "move your speed" part triggers a check to remain hidden if you move more than 2 squares, it isn't the check you make from the power. So if you don't want to be seen moving from place to place, you need to roll at -5 to remain hidden unless you have the Secret Stride Feat or are using Shadow Stride (and if you don't have Shadow Stride, you need cover all along your path).

So, if you use Fleeting Ghost when you're already hidden, you take the -5 on remaining hidden and if you fail, can make a check to hide where you end up, but you were seen along your path.

Shadow Stride gives you the Fleeting Ghost benefit, PLUS if you use it successfully, you're hidden for the whole distance you moved -- so you can dash across a fully lighted hallway right in front of the guards, starting and ending with total cover, and they won't see a thing.

Shadow Stride doesn't provide the Fleeting Ghost benefit of moving and making a check to hide. You have to already be hidden to use Shadow Stride. If you have Shadow Stride, but not Fleeting Ghost, you need total concealment or superior cover to hide and take -5 on your attempt to do so if you move more than 2 squares and don't have the Secret Stride feat.

 

[deleteme123456]

I cannot possibly fathom how you get that you can ignore the requirement to have superior cover or total concealment from Fleeting Ghost. Does it say "Make a stealth check without needing superior cover or total concealment?" No. It says "You can move your speed and make a stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check." That's a very serious stretch of the imagination, and turning the already de-facto best Rogue Utility 2 power into something completely ridiculously broken.

The power overrides the rule about the movement penalty but is silent on the matter of cover, therefore it cannot override that rule. For specific to beat general, the specific must... well, imagine this, be specific, and this power says nothing specific about ignoring requirements for stealth.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

I cannot possibly fathom how you get that you can ignore the requirement to have superior cover or total concealment from Fleeting Ghost. Does it say "Make a stealth check without needing superior cover or total concealment?" No. It says "You can move your speed and make a stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check." That's a very serious stretch of the imagination, and turning the already de-facto best Rogue Utility 2 power into something completely ridiculously broken.

The power overrides the rule about the movement penalty but is silent on the matter of cover, therefore it cannot override that rule. For specific to beat general, the specific must... well, imagine this, be specific, and this power says nothing specific about ignoring requirements for stealth.

If you had to meet a condition to make the check, it sould say so. Look at Shadow Stride, it says "...if you have cover..."

The power says, "You can move your speed and make a stealth check." That's the RAW. Powers do what they say. By using the power, you can make a check. Then it says you don't take a penalty for movement on that check.

When something enables you to make a check, it doesn't specify everything that you don't have to do. For example, look at the Stealth check enabled by use of the Bluff skill:

"Create a Diversion to Hide: Once per combat encounter, you can create a diversion to hide. As a standard action, make a Bluff check opposed by the passive Insight check of any enemy that can see you. If you succeed, make a Stealth check opposed by the passive Perception check of any enemy present. If the Stealth check succeeds against an enemy, you are hidden from that enemy until the end of your turn or until you attack."

In no place does that say anything about not needing to meet the requirements of Total Concealment or Superior Cover. You can rule that in your games that means you must have Superior Cover or Total Concealment to make that Stealth check, but it seems a little wonky that way...