Quality, price, and the place for PDFs in the print industry

[Nellisir]

I'm sorry but if they are producing a product for sale they are producing a product with the intent of generating revenue that is not unpaid. So it's on nights and weekends, doesn't mean it's not a job. The second they say, I'm going to produce a product for sale they have become a professional and need to act like it.

Ah, I see the problem. I view a "profession" as "a principal calling, vocation, or employment", while you see it as "engaged in by persons receiving financial return". Speaking for myself, writing is a hobby ("a pursuit outside of one's regular occupation engaged in esp. for relaxation"), and selling writing is the frosting on the cake. It's rather like building birdhouses in my garage and selling them at yardsales.

That said, you might note I largely AGREE with you about links and crossreferencing. I think they are "logical and useful", and suspect they will become standard on pdf gaming products sooner rather than later. I intend to do it on any products I release (total so far = 0), unless it proves extraordinarily time-consuming.

HOWEVER, you'll still have to deal with the hobbyists who are doing this for their satisfaction, not yours, and who do not find it interesting or worthwhile to create links.

You print your pdfs out, so the linked cross reference wouldn't matter to you, and the linked indexes would not matter either. My point is if you're going to put it there link it, you're producing digital material it seems unwise to me not to assume that a large percentage of your audience is going to view them digitally.

I intend to. I also intend to have 2 versions; 1 landscaped for onscreen viewing, and 1 portrait for printing. Despite my not generally using the onscreen version, comments from other people have made it clear they like the feature. Whether both will be linked or not depends on at what stage the linking occurs. I don't yet own Adobe Acrobat, so I can't tell you. If I can create links and then split the document into 2 versions, hoorah. If I need to create links in the 2 documents, I'll probably not link the portrait version.

You're probably right. I would like to see someone try them and see if they help sales at all. These fall into the area of things I would really like to see but don't expect for a year or two at least.

I'd be willing to do one, but it'd have to be designed by someone willing to work for a small fee, or small percentage of royaltys, and it'd make a meaningful contribution to the product. At the moment, I don't anticipate writing anything that'd require or justify interactive forms.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[annadobritt]

I have to post here, since what's being talked about, (clickable indexes, and cross-referencing in pdfs) is something that I'm working on with the SRD.

In its current layout in WordXP the SRD document ( not including the d20 Modern SRD, is over 1000 pages long.

I've been working on this pdf since the Thursday before Easter, putting in at least 8 hours a day on this. I've finally reached the point where all the heading styles are correct and appear in the Table of Contents. (Yes, I did work on it Easter Sunday too.)

Next up is the Index, which will probably take me a day or two since I've never made one before.

My only work is freelance work, I don't have an outside job and spend nearly all my waking time at the computer working. And there's still not enough time to sit down and read through the books I have for InDesign and Adobe Acrobat.

Drawmack, if you could add more hours in a day, then it might be possible for pdf publishers to learn to create the bells and whistles you want. But most of them have Real Lives too (day jobs and families) and there's just no real way to get everything done. So saying you won't purchase pdfs anymore is one of the silliest things I've ever heard of.

There's a lot of great ones out that even if you don't use all of what's in one, you can still find excellent ideas to adapt to your campaign needs.

(Sorry, I don't usually post long posts like this. And I hope I haven't offended anyone.)

 

[EOL]

I will continue my subscription to dire kobold though as their xenogenic publishing is really amazing. However that's about it.

Whew!

Thanks for the compliment!

 

[Mark]

You're right and guess what, I've just made an excutive decision. I will purchase no more pdfs until this cross linking happens. Your industry made $600.00 off of me last year and will make nothing off of me until this becomes a standard.

..and yet my love is still strong and everlasting. Unconditional and as pure as the driven snow...

 

[Drawmack]

I'd be willing to do one, but it'd have to be designed by someone willing to work for a small fee, or small percentage of royaltys, and it'd make a meaningful contribution to the product. At the moment, I don't anticipate writing anything that'd require or justify interactive forms.

Tell ya what, I'll put my money where my mouth is. You put together a product that calls for an interactive form and I'll design it for you. As far as pay we can work that out at the time, but it'll be cheap - this is a put my money where my mouth is deal.

 

[Drawmack]

I have to post here, since what's being talked about, (clickable indexes, and cross-referencing in pdfs) is something that I'm working on with the SRD.

I'm glad to here this is coming along well, and I hope much of it remains usable with 3.5.

Next up is the Index, which will probably take me a day or two since I've never made one before.

My only work is freelance work, I don't have an outside job and spend nearly all my waking time at the computer working. And there's still not enough time to sit down and read through the books I have for InDesign and Adobe Acrobat.

a day or two to index a 1000+ page document, so we're talking 16 hours? That doesn't sound time prohibitive to me.

Drawmack, if you could add more hours in a day, then it might be possible for pdf publishers to learn to create the bells and whistles you want. But most of them have Real Lives too (day jobs and families) and there's just no real way to get everything done. So saying you won't purchase pdfs anymore is one of the silliest things I've ever heard of.

Anna, you know I understand having a real life. You'll also note that of the wish list the only thing I'm really wanting and finding lacking is the links and indexes. I really don't think that saying it takes too long is a viable excuse from a professional. Maybe to you that statement is silly. However, look back closely at this thread at take note of the way a number of publishers have treated me the fan, the one who purchases their material.

(Sorry, I don't usually post long posts like this. And I hope I haven't offended anyone.)

I feel reasonably comfortable in stating that we know each other fairly well and you know that I don't offend easily.

 

[Drawmack]

Whew!

Thanks for the compliment!

I have this bad habbit of giving credit where credit is due,

 

[Drawmack]

..and yet my love is still strong and everlasting. Unconditional and as pure as the driven snow...

While I think I can feel some sarcasm dripping off of this statement I must admit that I am also a lover of fine sarcasm. I find it more pleasing to the pallet then fine wine, which gives me heartburn. Anyway I will note that you were very professional and kind throughout this thread even calling others on it when they got snarky with me and for that I will still continue to show interest in your products.

 

[Nellisir]

Tell ya what, I'll put my money where my mouth is. You put together a product that calls for an interactive form and I'll design it for you. As far as pay we can work that out at the time, but it'll be cheap - this is a put my money where my mouth is deal.

Sounds like a good deal to me. I'm working on a good ol' fashioned monster book right now, so there's not much need for a clickable form that I can see...unless I include a "monster character sheet"...

Hmmm....

;-)
Nell.

 

[Mark]

While I think I can feel some sarcasm dripping off of this statement I must admit that I am also a lover of fine sarcasm. I find it more pleasing to the pallet then fine wine, which gives me heartburn. Anyway I will note that you were very professional and kind throughout this thread even calling others on it when they got snarky with me and for that I will still continue to show interest in your products.

You can stick by your guns across the board on all PDFs and it won't bother me in the slightest, brother man. I was simply following up my previous little mood lightener in the same vein in hopes that a bit of the tension would be relieved. No sarcasm meant.

Now, since you got me all serious-like...

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I think most of the ideas are overly cost-prohibitive. My next product will have a tables of contents inside the front page which will mostly serve those printing the product out, and an alphabetized index-as-bookmarks which will serve the on-screen crowd. Links within the document tend to make them too heavy on the file size and I do not think that this particular product really needs that sort of additional linkage.

(You oughta give Anna a hand with her project. She needs the help, very much, and it serves the whole community in the long run. I'd bet a number of pubs might take you up on some of your pipedream extras if they see you involved at that sort of grassroots level. I might also be wrong, but it's worth a shot, I think.)