Quality, price, and the place for PDFs in the print industry

[Kerrick]

Cept the fact that I'm not a publisher and have no desire to be a publisher. I was speaking as a fan explaining what I would like to see and continuing to discuss the issue. I did not intend to offend. I feel that saying, put up or shut up to a fan and customer is extremely bad business sense, would you ever do that in your day job?

You're right - that was unprofessional of me, and I apolgize. (And incidentally, I don't HAVE a day job as yet - this is it.) I assumed you were also a publisher, so it seemed reasonable to challenge you to do the same you're urging everyone else to do. The tone you were taking rubbed me the wrong way, and my annoyance at some gamers spilled over into my posting.

However, the rest of my post remains. It's too much work for too little return, IMO, and while I enjoy editing, I don't think putting hyperlinks into a pdf would be my cup of tea - it's just more things to check and recheck, and it creates more headaches.

You'd be pretty upset if I told you that your website is buggey because error checking takes too long wouldn't you?

If the site was buggy because I couldn't be bothered to take the time to error check, yes, I would be upset, but with myself only, not the person who was kind enough to point out the errors. Same thing would apply to a document I wrote and/or edited - I take pride in my work, and every mistake I find in a finished product makes me work all that much harder to catch them the next time.

 

[Nellisir]

I think Tensen hit the nail on the head: bells & whistles are only good the first time. Movies & other frippery are better released as stand-alone features, preferably free, that don't encumber the core document (the promo movie thing for Society of Sinister Sport falls into this category. It's fun, but I don't want to pay for it. Or watch it again.)

Indexes and linking, on the other hand, are logical and useful things that add value to one facet of the product. I print out my pdfs, so links are of no practical value to me, but a solid index is always good. I suspect these will become standard as time progresses -- there's a learning curve with any technology, and RPG publishers need time to learn. Most of the RPG e-publishers I'm aware of are part-timers -- they have a regular 9-5 job that pays the bills and buys the groceries. Learning the software happens on their own, unpaid time, unlike a large company where you might get paid to sit around and fiddle for eight hours, or sent to seminars and classes. If they're anything like me, they learn to do something as they need to do it, and only discover newer and better ways when they stumble across someone else's notes, or find some time to devote to research.

Then there's the middle ground bells, like customizable forms. Neat, but of mixed value (many people just won't use it) and outside of many people's experience and ability -- certainly mine, and I personally don't see recouping the cost I'd invest in hiring someone to design it (and I'm not even talking the $$$ a pro would make -- I'm talking the hundred dollar pizza fund for the comp sci student.)

Just a few thoughts,
Nell.

 

[Drawmack]

You know, Drawmack, your posts in this thread have been awfully irritating and inflammatory. Just because you put a smiley beside an incendiary comment doesn't make it unoffensive.

I honestly did not intend to be irritating or inflamatory. Execpt in one post, in response to an enflamatory post pointed at me, and that wasn't only noticed by me, read back and you'll see someone else commenting on it as well. If I have been irritating or inflamatory I appologize and will attempt to avoid that in the future.

Are you saying that Ambient Inc. and E.N.Publishing products are NOT a cut above the rest?

Nope, never said that - never insuated that. You are putting words into my mouth. To honestly address the questions asked. I have not purchased any ambient products. Nothing against them just havn't seen one that I thought would be useful in the style game that I run. I did download PHFOB and I loved it, can't wait for the second one. I've also seen hell hounds posts in the boards and judging from this, addmitedly limited, exposure to Ambient's products I would say that they are a cut above some, probably many, other pdf products. Right on par with some others and I've seen a couple very high quality products that Ambient may fall short of. With E.N. Publishing my only exposure has been TTF. I was impressed with the rule presented in this product but not overly thrilled with many of the other aspects of it. However having too limited of exposure I will withhold direct comment on if, in general, they are a cut above the rest or not. When I say a cut above the rest, I mean a cut above everyone and there is only one way to do that - be the first to do something.

Or that we don't have good sales? Even with exceptional sales of 500 copies, your pipedreams would break the budget for a book, or push the price so high that JoeAverage PDF consumer wouldn't bite.

Some of the things on my initial list were pipe dreams and I admitted that the first time they were brought up. Would I like to see them. Yes. Do I really expect to see them. No. There is really only one thing on that list that I can honestly say I'm dissapointed is not used more adaquatly in rpg pdfs and this is internal hyperlinking. The reason I am adamant that it doesn't take too long, and that these a just excuses is because I also buy programming pdfs and game manual (not table top) pdfs often. Those cost about the same, per page, as role playing pdfs and they have linked indexes and cross references. If someone put one of those out without the links they would be considered unprofessional, but rpg epublishers say it takes too long and get upset when I don't believe them.

I believe that the author should never receive less than the artists/cartographers/layout/publisher, but what you have in mind would dramatically decrease the author's cut. And make for huge file sizes, which is a deterrent to consumers. And make for prices above $10/PDF, which would be yet another deterrent.

As far as everyone getting paid the same. I would say that depends if someone has a name and others don't and all that stuff needs to be taken into account. Yes if everything I've mentioned was used the files would be huge and would probably need to be split for download. Thought this could be used to sell them as seperate products. A trial run would be expensive and unless some very creative measures were taken to keep cost down, it would be cost prohibitive. However if the different features were offered in different products publishers would know what sold.

I've never liked the "put your money where your mouth is" argument. But I'll buy a beer for the first publisher to put out a product with all of your bells and whistles that manages to do a decent payout. Heck, I'll buy them a lap dance.

Thank you for that. I'd buy them a lap dance too. As I stated above they are really pipe dreams. Maybe some voice for pronunciation of stranger words, or something. but really the one thing I think should be there is better linking. If a reference in the book says see section X it should be a link to section X.

 

[Drawmack]

Done for the most part. Although only real difference in the amount of ink used. Because we intend our customers to be using cut and paste to grab the particulars they need for their own campaign, or print the pages they need.

A lot of companies are doing this and I love it. Matter of fact I'd be perfectly happy if they just ripped the pictures and borders out but left the space. I could take notes there, and besides paper is a lot cheaper then ink.

We hyperlinked to follow the storyline of journals through a product.... it wasn't used. Why would it be used in the majority of sourcebooks?

You're reading a long in a sourcebook, you're on page 25 come to a reference for something that says see page 84. Do you flip to page 84? If you do, would you click the link or move manually in a pdf? You look something up in the index. If that reference is a link are you clicking the link or manually flipping to the page?

We are game designers... we provide written material to enhance your imagination. If we were computer game designers.. that medium might make more sense. But I for one am desiging d20 products, not Neverwinter Nights. Sound might be fun.. in fact some of our designers have played with such... but it isn't intended as professional work.

It isn't intended as professional work or it isn't intended as professional work, yet? I can see sound being helpful in a lot of areas. They wouldn't even need to be embedded into the pdf for all of them. In an adventure you could have sound effects for major happening and maybe even some music for major scenes. Though music is probably pushing it. If those were kept out of the pdf they could be burned to cd for those who don't use a computer at the game table. Pronounciation keys for strange words would be good as well. with Mp3s and other even newer technologies voice takes up very little space.

You are talking about things software companies can and have done. Why not leave it to them?

With the database app yes I am. With the character sheet that I can fill out I'm not. Just a pdf form character sheet that includes the stuff from your product is all, nothing big here.

Well for one.. I'm designing for print. I just happen to be using PDF as a medium at this moment.

I honestly see this as a self-contradicting statement. It would be like me saying I'm programming for windows but using the web as a medium right now. Possibly a little clarifycation is needed.

PDFs are catching on now for their ease of use, low cost, and compatability. Once we start addiing animation, sounds, and other bells and whistles.. we'll also have to start adding staff to support the software we are now selling. I for one personally use Acrobat 4... there are normal documents that don't come out right... whereas if you use animation and I don't upgrade.. likely I'll be paying for something that doesn't work. No thanks.

And finally some well founded arguements against using many of the things that I mentioned.

 

[Drawmack]

You're right - that was unprofessional of me, and I apolgize. (And incidentally, I don't HAVE a day job as yet - this is it.) I assumed you were also a publisher, so it seemed reasonable to challenge you to do the same you're urging everyone else to do. The tone you were taking rubbed me the wrong way, and my annoyance at some gamers spilled over into my posting.

If I were a publisher it would be pretty hypocrytical of me to do that. I appologize if I rubbed you the wrong way. That was not my intent. I also appologize for assuming you had a day job, most small imprint and pdf publishers do, even if that day job is simply writting for other people.

However, the rest of my post remains. It's too much work for too little return, IMO, and while I enjoy editing, I don't think putting hyperlinks into a pdf would be my cup of tea - it's just more things to check and recheck, and it creates more headaches.

And my response to the rest of your post remains. You are a publisher, this means you don't get to pick and choose when it comes to putting out a quality product. You have to put in the work to create the product. I hate designing interfaces, but I have to do it because I don't think I'd have many clients if I did purely utilitarian interfaces.

If the site was buggy because I couldn't be bothered to take the time to error check, yes, I would be upset, but with myself only, not the person who was kind enough to point out the errors. Same thing would apply to a document I wrote and/or edited - I take pride in my work, and every mistake I find in a finished product makes me work all that much harder to catch them the next time.

I think you missed my meaning here. Have you ever forgotten to put in a subject to a new thread on the boards? It told you didn't it? What if it didn't, and then didn't offer you the option to edit the post because that would all be too much work for the programmer? How about this, you get a web-site build with a store front. It demands that you enter all product prices with three digits, then a decimal and two digits after that. If you're product costs less then $100 you must zero pad the price. If you do not enter the price in this format then it lists the price as 0.00 and gives the product away. However you are never warned about this and it is not documented anywhere because that would take too much of the programmers time. That would be considered unprofessional wouldn't it? I see not properly hyperlinking a pdf in the same vein as this and that is why I say that IMO saying hyper linking takes too long is an unprofessional argument.

 

[Drawmack]

I think Tensen hit the nail on the head: bells & whistles are only good the first time. Movies & other frippery are better released as stand-alone features, preferably free, that don't encumber the core document (the promo movie thing for Society of Sinister Sport falls into this category. It's fun, but I don't want to pay for it. Or watch it again.)

And once again those were pipe dreams. I'd like to see them, but don't ever think I will.

Indexes and linking, on the other hand, are logical and useful things that add value to one facet of the product. I print out my pdfs, so links are of no practical value to me, but a solid index is always good. I suspect these will become standard as time progresses -- there's a learning curve with any technology, and RPG publishers need time to learn. Most of the RPG e-publishers I'm aware of are part-timers -- they have a regular 9-5 job that pays the bills and buys the groceries. Learning the software happens on their own, unpaid time, unlike a large company where you might get paid to sit around and fiddle for eight hours, or sent to seminars and classes. If they're anything like me, they learn to do something as they need to do it, and only discover newer and better ways when they stumble across someone else's notes, or find some time to devote to research.

I'm sorry but if they are producing a product for sale they are producing a product with the intent of generating revenue that is not unpaid. So it's on nights and weekends, doesn't mean it's not a job. The second they say, I'm going to produce a product for sale they have become a professional and need to act like it. You print your pdfs out, so the linked cross reference wouldn't matter to you, and the linked indexes would not matter either. My point is if you're going to put it there link it, you're producing digital material it seems unwise to me not to assume that a large percentage of your audience is going to view them digitally.

Then there's the middle ground bells, like customizable forms. Neat, but of mixed value (many people just won't use it) and outside of many people's experience and ability -- certainly mine, and I personally don't see recouping the cost I'd invest in hiring someone to design it (and I'm not even talking the $$$ a pro would make -- I'm talking the hundred dollar pizza fund for the comp sci student.)

You're probably right. I would like to see someone try them and see if they help sales at all. These fall into the area of things I would really like to see but don't expect for a year or two at least.

 

[Dextra]

Nope, never said that - never insuated that. You are putting words into my mouth. To honestly address the questions asked. I have not purchased any ambient products. Nothing against them just havn't seen one that I thought would be useful in the style game that I run. I did download PHFOB and I loved it, can't wait for the second one.

I'm interested what kind of game exists in which our products wouldn't be useful. I know I'm somewhat biased, but I always thought that some balanced and creative prestige classes were classics

BTW, Son of a Portable Hole has been out since April 1st, and is available through RPGNow.

 

[Drawmack]

I'm interested what kind of game exists in which our products wouldn't be useful. I know I'm somewhat biased, but I always thought that some balanced and creative prestige classes were classics

I run a city based intrigue/suspense style game in a low magic version of Freeport. I have homebrewed 7 classes based around the rogue combined with the other core classes. Prestige classes are very rare IMC. After all it is supposed to be prestigeous (sp) to get into one. Magic is rare, so the usefullness of spells is limited. My players tend to work on plain old investigative measures. I attempted to take a look at your products on rpgnow and Ambient is not on their pull down of publishers and a search for ambient turned up everyone's products but yours. I know I looked at them when they came out and they just didn't seem to be a good fit IMC. Nothing against them, they all looked very high quality.

BTW, Son of a Portable Hole has been out since April 1st, and is available through RPGNow.

Come to think of it I remember the announcement and I can't remember why I didn't grab it at the time. I think I was having internet problems and couldn't get to RPG now I'm downloading it right now though.

 

[jmucchiello]

You're reading a long in a sourcebook, you're on page 25 come to a reference for something that says see page 84. Do you flip to page 84? If you do, would you click the link or move manually in a pdf? You look something up in the index. If that reference is a link are you clicking the link or manually flipping to the page?

I don't mean to flippant here but you do know that in Acrobat Reader there is a box in the lower left of the window frame where the page number is listed. When it says 25 of 108 you can type 85 into is and it will change to page 85 instantly. Yes, that's not as convenient as just clicking the number 85 but the functionallity is built into the reader to just from page to page.

The reason I am adamant that it doesn't take too long, and that these a just excuses is because I also buy programming pdfs and game manual (not table top) pdfs often. Those cost about the same, per page, as role playing pdfs and they have linked indexes and cross references. If someone put one of those out without the links they would be considered unprofessional, but rpg epublishers say it takes too long and get upset when I don't believe them.

What are these places? Where can I buy these PDFs and see what other PDF producers do? Name titles of PDFs and websites where those sites are offered and list websites where fanboys of such PDFs exist so I can see someone get flamed for failing to hyperlink properly? You have an experience I know nothing about. Enlighten me. And don't point me a google, you were very vague about what topics these PDFs cover.

I'm going to speculate now, but I'll bet the "programming" ones are made by people with programming backgrounds who know their way arounf the PDF specification.

With the database app yes I am. With the character sheet that I can fill out I'm not. Just a pdf form character sheet that includes the stuff from your product is all, nothing big here.

The problem with this is I don't know two gamers who use the same character sheet (who play the same game system). 7 people sitting at a table playing the same game, 7 different character sheet styles. Thus, I don't think I (or anyone else) could design a character sheet that would satisfy even 1% of my readers. YMMV.

The second they say, I'm going to produce a product for sale they have become a professional and need to act like it. My point is if you're going to put it there link it, you're producing digital material it seems unwise to me not to assume that a large percentage of your audience is going to view them digitally.

Except that this market does not consider the lack of cross-linking unprofessional. Lack of bookmarks on the other hand is considered unprofessional. Since no one has demonstatively lost sales because their PDFs lack internal cross-linking, there is no market pressure (except your posts in this thread ) to do so. Additionally, we contend that it takes too much time in terms of making the cross-links and checking the cross-links compared to out profit margins. Until lacking cross-linking affects profit margics, they will not happen.

 

[Drawmack]

I don't mean to flippant here but you do know that in Acrobat Reader there is a box in the lower left of the window frame where the page number is listed. When it says 25 of 108 you can type 85 into is and it will change to page 85 instantly. Yes, that's not as convenient as just clicking the number 85 but the functionallity is built into the reader to just from page to page.
What are these places? Where can I buy these PDFs and see what other PDF producers do? Name titles of PDFs and websites where those sites are offered and list websites where fanboys of such PDFs exist so I can see someone get flamed for failing to hyperlink properly? You have an experience I know nothing about. Enlighten me. And don't point me a google, you were very vague about what topics these PDFs cover.

Tomorrow I'll upload a free one to my web-site and post a link here. It's a 700+ page pdf on javascript with an extensive, hyperlinked, index and cross references. As far a pointing to resources the ones I know of are mailing lists that I highly doubt a non-programer would want to become a member of.

I'm going to speculate now, but I'll bet the "programming" ones are made by people with programming backgrounds who know their way arounf the PDF specification.

Anyone, I repeat anyone, who is professionally producing a product cannot hide behind a lack of knowledge about the tools to create that product and sill maintain professionalism. It is impossible.

The problem with this is I don't know two gamers who use the same character sheet (who play the same game system). 7 people sitting at a table playing the same game, 7 different character sheet styles. Thus, I don't think I (or anyone else) could design a character sheet that would satisfy even 1% of my readers. YMMV.

My milage will vary. Around my table you will only find one game sheet being used by everyone. You will also find the same game sheet as the standard at three other games that my players also play in. I say you're probably right about the satisfying 1%, but at least it would give them ideas on where to stick the boxes for the mechanics introduced in the product, which I'm sure would be appreciated even if not used.

Except that this market does not consider the lack of cross-linking unprofessional. Lack of bookmarks on the other hand is considered unprofessional. Since no one has demonstatively lost sales because their PDFs lack internal cross-linking, there is no market pressure (except your posts in this thread ) to do so. Additionally, we contend that it takes too much time in terms of making the cross-links and checking the cross-links compared to out profit margins. Until lacking cross-linking affects profit margics, they will not happen.

You're right and guess what, I've just made an excutive decision. I will purchase no more pdfs until this cross linking happens. Your industry made $600.00 off of me last year and will make nothing off of me until this becomes a standard.

I will continue my subscription to dire kobold though as their xenogenic publishing is really amazing. However that's about it.