"Quality Standards" in the d20 System Guide

[jmucchiello]

This would work. The Everquest end-run seems to have gone unchallenged, as has S&SS's "Compatible with the World's Most Popular Fantasy Role Playing Game". Both of which are probably more readily understandable to a new player than the d20 logo.

I'm wondering if it would be wise for the d20 industry as a whole to do this, though. If they are to worry about waking the sleeping giant (which is what someone, somewhere did, apparently) then they probably shouldn't find an alternative that is too effective. If that happens, when 4th edition comes out the SRD4.0 might be released through a single license that combines the STL and the OGL.

I would suspect that if you went this route, you would be well advise to come up with your own euphamism. If a bunch of different companies put out book all saying "compatible with the world's most popular fantasy role playing game", WotC's lawyers would be able to waltz into the trademark office and claim World's Most Popular RPG as a trademark in an instant. And they would receive it since all these competitors were using that very text to refer to D&D.

If 4.0 ed comes out with any kind of easily obtainable third party license and any for of OGL, I'll be shocked. I think the third party players are stuck with 3.5 from now on. 4.0 will not look like 3.5.

 

[MThibault]

WotC's lawyers would be able to waltz into the trademark office and claim World's Most Popular RPG as a trademark in an instant. And they would receive it since all these competitors were using that very text to refer to D&D.

Actually, they would be using it to refer to the SRD/OGL pool which includes Arcana Unearthed, etc. Even though everyone would be hoping that the phrase would be associated with D&D, they would also be hoping that all those AU fans buy a copy as well.

So what I would suggest would be that if you are going to try something like this, then designate whatever phrase you come up with as Open Content.

I am not a lawyer but I don't think that you can claim a phrase as a trademark if someone else holds the copyright to it. And if your copyright is valid, then the Open Content designation will be valid under the OGL. So the phrase will stay associated with the OGL, yet independent of the d20 License. As far as I can tell (and who am I really, to know this stuff) you could have both the d20 logo and the Open Content compatiblity phrase on an OGL product. That would tie the two together (the phrase and the logo) until such a time that WotC changed the d20STL to separate them. Best case scenario would be that by that point the distributers and retailers would be trained to shelve the Phrased products beside the D&D stuff.

I'm not really trying to be devious and undermine the d20 license. But for those who are looking for risk-management alternatives I'm just throwing out ideas.

Cheers

 

[BSF]

If 4.0 ed comes out with any kind of easily obtainable third party license and any for of OGL, I'll be shocked. I think the third party players are stuck with 3.5 from now on. 4.0 will not look like 3.5.

That may be. But, it will severly limit my interest in the product if they do. At this point, I own more 3rd party products than I do WotC stuff. And that is not to say that I am stingy with the WotC stuff!

While I expect my players to have a PHB, I do not expect them to have all the 3rd party material that I do. I encourage them to pick up new things! But, by and large, they do not have the same amount of "disposable income" that I do.

Admittedly, I can only influence roughly a dozen people. But, if 4.0 comes out and it doesn't include support for 3rd party publishers to enter the market, I will not advocate moving to it.

 

[Mercule]

But, if 4.0 comes out and it doesn't include support for 3rd party publishers to enter the market, I will not advocate moving to it.

I think that if 4E doesn't have some sort of STL/OGL behind it, what you'll see is someone else using the OGL to publish an alternate set of "Foundation" (Core) Rulebooks including character generation and advancement. Most people who are currently trying to make a living from d20 works will follow suit.

I don't know if it'll be a successful industry shift, because WotC and D&D have the brand recognition. Still, I imagine it would do at least as well as GURPS, if not the WoD.

 

[Dr. Harry]

Please pardon this post - I'm trying out an avatar

Dr. Harry

 

[DaveStebbins]

So what is WotC's actual concern here?

What follows is pure speculation, my guess as to what happened with absolutely no facts (or even juicy rumors) to back it up.

Ryan Dancey has gone on at length about the discussions and research which led to the release of the SRD, the OGL and the d20 STL. The process was well though out and thoroughly discussed with, and modified by, the lawyers prior to release.

My guess is that last year, Wizards was going over the results of further research when a disturbing trend was discovered. While the d20 logo and license was set up as a mark of compatability with D&D (and for reasons of legal protection, ONLY a mark of compatability), consumers were beginning to identify it closely with D&D. Consumers saw it not just as a mark of compatability, though, but also read expectations of content into the logo.

The lawyers said that if the consumers were seeing the logo as a mark of content in addition to a mark of compatability, then Wizards had darn well better treat it the same way. Lots of meetings and discussions and arguments followed. Many people wanted very much to keep the license content-free. In my make-believe scenario AV was probably heavily in this camp, knowing that well done mature products (and the BoVD was just the merest first baby-step) could extend the game in a good way. But, as always, the lawyers won.

Finally, after much further gnashing of teeth and many meetings, drafts, proposals, discussions, more meetings, approvals, rewrites and delays, the new version of the d20 STL and d20 Guide were born, quietly thrust into use without warning in the dark of night...

Oh, well. As I said, just some marginally on-topic wild guesses about what might have happened in one of the infinite universes. Feel free to return your discussions of what is and isn't porn...

-Dave

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Again, the disaster is *not* the particular standards being implemented. It's that (1) they are vague, (2) they are not publicly defined, and (3) they almost can not help but be selectively enforced. I'd be ok with them implementing any decency clause they want, provided that they (A) defined it clearly enough in the Guide so that no one would have any reasonable doubts about (non)compliance, and wouldn't need to go to WotC for a judgement call, (B) had some sort of time limits on their review process, and (C) they provided some explanation of a mechanism whereby they could actually keep track of the vast corpus of D20 products and thus enforce the standards evenly. It's not the standards that are the problem--it's the uncertainty.

I deal with a lot of lawyers in the course of my profession. I can assure you that they vastly prefer vague guidelines because it is far easier to enforce something that's not well defined. It is also more difficult to draft something clear and compellingly written that supports your position when you add more detail.

As to your point 3, who's to say? It's possible that a WotC or Hasbro staff counsel lawyer is being told to start watching this exact issue more closely.

Dave Stebbins, I'd like to also say that I saw your post. Your insight into the corporate world is keen. That scenario is quite compelling. Though we may never know if it's true, of course.

 

[Mercule]

Oh, well. As I said, just some marginally on-topic wild guesses about what might have happened in one of the infinite universes. Feel free to return your discussions of what is and isn't porn...

Well, let me establish myself as a zealot and say that your icon is porn because it shows so much skin. I'd report it to the monitors, but as a dyed in the wool Luddite, I refuse to use any technology to communicate it to them.

Okay, now that I'm pretty sure that nothing dumber* can be said on the subject of porn, let me say that you have laid forth an interesting, and highly plausible, scenario. We likely won't ever know, though.

Of course, anyone at WotC who believed for a second that the d20 license wouldn't become associated with the D&D brand, especially when part of the STL requires the words "Dungeons and Dragons" to be included on all d20 products, shouldn't hold any position more influential than janitor. If they do, then I have some swampland in Florida to sell them.

* Just a formal statement that I'm not slamming anyone, just being a smart alleck.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Oh, well. As I said, just some marginally on-topic wild guesses about what might have happened in one of the infinite universes. Feel free to return your discussions of what is and isn't porn...

-Dave

One thing that may have caused this scenario of yours to happen would be complaints about product quality that don't have anything to do with WOTC product. For example, a consumer buys a d20 book from a 3rd party Publisher, and hates it. This consumer, knowing nothing about the d20 license, complains in a letter to WOTC, or to the WOTC customer service line. This would be a problem.

If enough of that sort of thing happens, the suits will notice.

 

[jmucchiello]

I think that if 4E doesn't have some sort of STL/OGL behind it, what you'll see is someone else using the OGL to publish an alternate set of "Foundation" (Core) Rulebooks including character generation and advancement. Most people who are currently trying to make a living from d20 works will follow suit.

I don't know if it'll be a successful industry shift, because WotC and D&D have the brand recognition. Still, I imagine it would do at least as well as GURPS, if not the WoD.

Don't you realize that's what they'd want you to do. Every third publisher or so will probably release "their PHB". Most will be tied to a setting: Kalamar, Midnight, Iron Kingdoms, etc. This fractures the old d20 market into dozens of small RPGs. Success of 4.0 is assured. It's the only one called Dungeons and Dragons.

(Maybe if I put these predictions in verse like Nostradomus...)

When Mars makes it closest pass of the Earth
A new license will be born 15 days after
Clashes of mind over motes of electricity
Heralding a new day in icosahedral laughter.

(Nyahh.)