"Quality Standards" in the d20 System Guide

[TiQuinn]

That argument you use left and right is a tad flawed. Why in the nine hells should a small publisher create stuff using the OGL if he can use the D20 and target a much bigger customer range that in turn gives him a tiny bit of financial security. You know, books with the official D20 logo sell way better than books that don't seem to be made for D&D/D20.

That's fine, but a publisher is using WotC's license and their trademarks. They aren't entitled to them. It's not a god-given right that they can use them. So, if a publisher doesn't want WotC to dictate quality standards to them (which is rapidly sounding like an imagined witch hunt more than anything else), they can use the OGL.

A lot of customers browse through the wares looking at the cover and this first impression most often decides if they take a closer look or not. If someone wants to buy D&D/D20 material, then it's likely he'll ditch a book without the D20 logo without further.

Which leads me to a question: Can anyone name some products which are compatible with d20 but are part of the OGL...not the d20STL? Arcana Unearthed and Everquest (I think) spring to mind, but I'm not sure what else?

 

[heirodule]

Fiend Folio is a red herring.

I don't know whay peopel point to nipples on the Fiend Folio as an example of WOTC hypocricy.

Its obvious they are male nipples.

Paul

 

[DaveStebbins]

That argument you use left and right is a tad flawed. Why in the nine hells should a small publisher create stuff using the OGL if he can use the D20 and target a much bigger customer range that in turn gives him a tiny bit of financial security. You know, books with the official D20 logo sell way better than books that don't seem to be made for D&D/D20. A lot of customers browse through the wares looking at the cover and this first impression most often decides if they take a closer look or not. If someone wants to buy D&D/D20 material, then it's likely he'll ditch a book without the D20 logo without further inspection.

For small publishers, it's even worse than that. Many distributors won't carry their stuff without the d20 logo. That's not a problem for big publishers with enough name recognition, but if a distributor decides not to carry your stuuf, the customers in the gaming stores won't even know it exists because they'll never see it. That's what the d20 trademark does. If a distributor sees it, he knows it will be displayed with D&D and have a wider audience and more sales, so he's more likely to carry it.

-Dave

 

[Ratenef]

Please note that this was supposed to have been posted last night at midnight EST, but due to several PC issues is being posted now, 14 hours later. So please forgive me if I seem 'dated'.

(RANT)

After having read this ENTIRE thread in one sitting.....took me about 2.5 hours, I have the following to add to this discussion.

Free Speech -- using this as a shield is just too damn easy. In a world of FREE speech there would be nothing taboo and children and impresionable minds would be subject to hate literature, child pornography, etc. Obviously we don't want this, so some sort of boundaries need to be made for society to prosper accordingly. WotC being the 'government' of this sub society is deeming what it considers those boundaries to be (i.e. gratuitious violence or sex, hate crimes and equality of religions). If WotC making this decision causes you such great grief, then stop buying ALL WotC (and possibly Hasbro) products and the problem will eventually vanish.

WotC the 'money whore' - Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they HQ'ed out of the US, the most capitalistic country in the world. As such they follow the rules of capitalism which basically states that less than 100% market share is unacceptable. If this is a problem for you, then do not buy WotC products, but also don't complain if DnD stops to flourish because its greatest proponent dies.

WotC being unfair -- Now this I don't understand. They made a truly excellent update to a dated system (read ver 3 here) and then made a significant portion of it free for anyone to download. Just think, you don't need to buy ANY books to play 3rd edition DnD. Just go to Wizards website and download the entire SRD. One game good to go! Then they also created a system that allows other companies to use this core system to create their own games and also ride the coat tails of WotC marketing by using the d20 moniker. Yes WotC wins because they get money from the books necessary to use any rules you create or adapt, but such is capitalism (see note above). With all the 100s of d20 stuff out there (from the sublime to crap) I only know of a few instances where companies were asked to change their product to comply with the d20 OGL licensing rules. Then WotC updated their core rules in responce to 1000s of hours of playing by fans of the game and also made these rules completely downloadable. All you miss is the non OGL stuff and some pretty pictures. All you whiners who complain about the cost of the v3.5 books, you should have just downloaded the 'new' rules (costing about $5 in printouts). Does this sound like a company that is being truly unfair?

OGL - by WotC adopting the OGL model, they have created a gaming market that allows for products from several different companies to be all used to together. In the last hey day of gaming (early - mid 80's) due to the policies of TSR, every non TSR book you picked up had different rules for just about anything, making it quite difficult for the DM or player to easily adopt features of other campaigns or accesories. I can't thank them enough for this bold and ambitious (and successful) action.

Anthony Valterra -- A lot of comments are being made about Mr. Valterra and what he did or didn't do. I think we are being unecessarily unfair. Are we privy to this mans thoughts or motives? If not, then please ask him what his intentions were. If he fails to respond accordingly, then we can maybe assume some nefarious plot. Actually Mr. Valterra you have responded to the times you were in charge of the OGL stuff for WotC, but I have yet to hear a comment regarding your thoughts or feelings regarding what WotC has done and how this will affect your book, either for the good or bad. Could you please maybe respond to this question and maybe, if you feel inclined, respond to the comments concerning your 'nefarious scheme'? Thanks.

WotC -- as with Mr. Valterra above, we are making assumptions as to what WotC were thinking or why they did what they did. They have made some politically correct comments but I would appreciate an explanation as to what actions by the industry made these changes necessary. Also, were these actions truly in responce to a single book (BoEF) or to many, and examples?

Now, WotC was completely within their rights to do what they did and I applaude them for their actions. If you were afraid of their 'manhandling' the OGL, then you were well forwarned by the 'these rules can change at any time without previous notice' clause.

If we use all the stuff that WotC has published to date as a springboard for what is acceptable and what is not, then we can benchmark what is allowable and what isn't. If you are afraid that something you wish to publish isn't, then I think that WotC should be and would be able to take the time to verify this for you. Or, you can just go the pure OGL route and not have a d20 logo on your book.

Is what WotC is asking all that bad?

NO gratuituos Violence
NO gratuitous sex/pornography
NO racism that could/does impact the modern world
NO religionism that could/does impact the modern world

These are things that I think are quite acceptable in a company that produces items for people 13+ (I started gaming when I was 10 and want my son to start at about 8). Albeit, a large portion of the game is played by adults (18+ years of age) but no exclusively. Also the product is sold in comic and book stores, which do not have age restrictions to enter, so we should be aware that any child that can read can and will pick up these books to peruse (I know my 6 year old son does).

So all Hasbro/WotC is doing is ensuring that their corporate policies are in effect as it would be with any of their other games (we don't see a Stripper G.I. Joe or a Vice Sqaud Lite Brite now do we?).

I am glad that WotC is making a stand with regards what its name gets directly associated with, for if it didn't I would really wonder about the moral directions of the company. And being a long time gamer and parent I do not think that the exclusion of these components will in any way negatively impact my game. If they did, I would just create my own set of guidelines that I would use in my games. If I choose to publish them I would have to consider the value of the d20 icon vs. publishing my exact material (which is truly a marketing vs. artistic integrity question).

Also everyone seems fixated on the Sex component of the new rules. The other three components (violence, race and religion) do not play an integral part in the new BoEF, do they? Are any of these restrictions going to cause any other books to stop production or distribution? If so what titles? And do we really want d20 books proliferating excessive violence (as if TV and Video games didn't already), or hate crimes or religious bigotry? I certainly don't and I hope you don't either.

Anyways thats my electrum piece rant.

(/RANT)

 

[I'm A Banana]

Ever since my girl friend appeared in this years Girls of the Big 10, I've needed Playboy around....

 

[Psion]

Fiend Folio is a red herring.

I don't know whay peopel point to nipples on the Fiend Folio as an example of WOTC hypocricy.

Its obvious they are male nipples.

Really? I thought they were elbows.

 

[Belen]

AV,

I will go ahead and offer my own apology. I do think it takes guts to produce something that you believe in, even if I do not agree with the content and how it has been presented to the public since the press release.

Kudos for fighting the policy change during your tenure with WOTC.

Again, I would have been behind your book had it been presented with less of an "erotic" mindset and more of the love and romance in a fantasy setting on mind...

Dave

 

[Sirius_Black]

However, I think you went a little overboard by adding the "real" photos and by including more modern sexual mores. A PrC for a Dominatrix alone ended it for me, but I digress.

Did it end it for you with respect to Green Ronin's "Plot and Poison" book which has a class like that starting on page 66?

 

[Voadam]

Also everyone seems fixated on the Sex component of the new rules. The other three components (violence, race and religion) do not play an integral part in the new BoEF, do they? Are any of these restrictions going to cause any other books to stop production or distribution? If so what titles? And do we really want d20 books proliferating excessive violence (as if TV and Video games didn't already), or hate crimes or religious bigotry? I certainly don't and I hope you don't either.

(/RANT)

Nebular Cross the future sci-fi pro-christian setting. See the press anouncement in this forum.

It might affect in the future mongoose books and maybe even the book of fiends (Any bared nipples in there?) as well as others.

Does a book on critical hits qualify as graphic violence? Bastion Press' torn asunder has grievous wounds in its art.

 

[TheRaven]

That's fine, but a publisher is using WotC's license and their trademarks. They aren't entitled to them. It's not a god-given right that they can use them. So, if a publisher doesn't want WotC to dictate quality standards to them (which is rapidly sounding like an imagined witch hunt more than anything else), they can use the OGL.

As I said, small publisher can't afford to create OGL products. I am well aware, that the D20STL is a gift from WotC/Hasbro. However, such a change to the license, as I see it, can be the death of very small publishers, that produce d20 products for small groups of customers. Let's say I want to create a pdf only product with alternative rules for realistic location targeted fighting. This pdf features severed limbs, paladins hacking goblin in pieces and other, similar stuff.

Like DaveStebbins said, it is not an option for me to write under the OGL. I can't publish it using as a D20 product because of the license. Ok, I might reduce some pictures and tone it down but the license is so vague, that it is still endangered. Now, where is my "safe harbor"? Considering that, why should I even try to make such a thing?

Sad thing is, that it isn't even meant for mainstream or non adults but for a selected few who can use such materials. Increasing the quality of the brand? From my point of view it rather looks like killing the versatility range of d20.