D&D 5E Question about change shape and Paladin Divine Sense
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Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Are we talking about the 9th level spell shapechange?
If so, the only thing the 5.0/5.1 version of the spell says possibly touching on this is “Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature,” so it depends on whether you classify creature type as a game statistic. Personally, I would so would consider the fiend’s type to have changed to humanoid because of the spell which, after all, is 9th level.
The 5.2 version of the spell is different in this respect. It states “you retain your creature type”, so there’s no room for the above interpretation.
If so, the only thing the 5.0/5.1 version of the spell says possibly touching on this is “Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature,” so it depends on whether you classify creature type as a game statistic. Personally, I would so would consider the fiend’s type to have changed to humanoid because of the spell which, after all, is 9th level.
The 5.2 version of the spell is different in this respect. It states “you retain your creature type”, so there’s no room for the above interpretation.
Well if Type means anything, changing Type should then remove any and all characteristics associated with Type. If you are no longer a Fiend, you should lose all powers associated with being a fiend. The rules specifically say there are no rules associated with Type, but there's a certain amount of "It stands to reason..." here.
In the end, if the thing is still filled with the magic and energies of a fiend, it should probably still detect as one.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
I get what you're saying. If Durin's Bane takes on the form of an elf maiden, he's still a balrog, a demon, and a fiend on the inside.
But there are no characteristics associated with type. AFAICT, there isn't any single quality all fiends have in common, so none of a creature's particular characteristics, other than its creature type, are what makes it a fiend.
The spell shapechange (v5.0) is specific about what characteristics port over to the new form. You keep your alignment, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, skill and save proficiencies, and the benefit of any features from your class, race, etc. but not any special senses.
So let's say a balor is somehow shapechanged into an elf. What we have now, assuming the balor is typical, is a chaotic evil elf with an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma of 20, 16, and 22 respectively (not unheard of for an elf), proficiency with Str, Con, Wis, and Cha saves, the damage resistances and damage and condition immunities of a balor, and the ability to speak Abyssal and use telepathy, that explodes when it dies, has a fire aura and magic resistance and weapons, and can multiattack and teleport. Now which of these characteristics are the characteristics of a fiend? Cold resistance and telepathy are fairly common among fiends but are nowhere near universal in creatures with the fiend creature type so cannot be said to be characteristics that are intrinsic to fiends because there are no such characteristics. The closest is evil alignment, but alignment itself as a statistic is only an indicator of what's typical and varies from individual to individual.
All this being said, I've blundered in bringing up shapechange at all. It appears the OP was attempting to discuss the night hag action Change Shape, so I apologize for inadvertently derailing the thread and will address the night hag feature in a separate post.
aco175
Legend
If they lose the type, does this make them lose what a fiend is? I'm thinking alignment and being a being of always evil, where a humanoid can be any alignment. Could make for some good encounters where the fiend stays changes for so long that they develop some good tendencies, only to revert back when it changes again.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Change Shape (I'm looking at the 5.0 Night Hag action) is ambiguous. On one hand, it says "The hag magically polymorphs into a Small or Medium female humanoid". On the other, it says "Her statistics are the same in each form." The stat block lists the hag as a Medium fiend, so the first sentence would imply a change to the hag's creature type and perhaps to its size as well, if the hag chooses to transform into one of the small races. The second sentence, however, would seem to contradict this, which can be resolved in one of two ways. One can either treat the sizes and type mentioned in the first sentence as exceptions to the second sentence (i.e. the hag's statistics are the same except for the type and, possibly, size previously mentioned), or one can treat them as only describing the kind of creature the hag transforms into but as having no effect on the hag's stat block, so even if the hag chooses to transform into a Small humanoid, she would continue to be treated as Medium for all game purposes, such as not having disadvantage when wielding heavy weapons. Likewise she would continue to be treated as a fiend.
Personally, I prefer the second resolution (not changing the fiend's creature type) for the same reason I prefer to change the fiend's creature type in the event of the shapechange spell being used. I.e. it treats the word statistics as encompassing type (and size) as is clearly supported in the "Monster Statistics" section of the rulebooks. But I could reasonably see another DM going the other way on this.
Personally, I prefer the second resolution (not changing the fiend's creature type) for the same reason I prefer to change the fiend's creature type in the event of the shapechange spell being used. I.e. it treats the word statistics as encompassing type (and size) as is clearly supported in the "Monster Statistics" section of the rulebooks. But I could reasonably see another DM going the other way on this.
evilbob
Adventurer
I think it's easy enough to talk yourself into either interpretation.
The night hag's ability says it can turn into a humanoid. Humanoid is a type. So clearly, you cannot choose the wine in front of the paladin.
But Shapechange, the spell, which is far more powerful and precise, specifically mentions type as something that doesn't change, while also saying you turn into an entirely different creature. It's also pretty intuitive that a fiend wouldn't cease to be a fiend while disguised. So clearly, you cannot choose the wine in front of the hag.
I think either interpretation can be valid: I'd only suggest you keep it consistent. If it were me, personally, I'd let the character be powerful, and have them detect. That feature would be nearly useless otherwise. The young humanoid might even have an interesting story as to why she appears fiendish to magical detection...
The night hag's ability says it can turn into a humanoid. Humanoid is a type. So clearly, you cannot choose the wine in front of the paladin.
But Shapechange, the spell, which is far more powerful and precise, specifically mentions type as something that doesn't change, while also saying you turn into an entirely different creature. It's also pretty intuitive that a fiend wouldn't cease to be a fiend while disguised. So clearly, you cannot choose the wine in front of the hag.
I think either interpretation can be valid: I'd only suggest you keep it consistent. If it were me, personally, I'd let the character be powerful, and have them detect. That feature would be nearly useless otherwise. The young humanoid might even have an interesting story as to why she appears fiendish to magical detection...
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