Question about GM's, Player Choice, and Prerequisites

[Water Bob]

Many combat maneuvers have prerequisites, but what if a character that doesn't meet those requirements attempts to try the maneuver anyway? Does it automatically fail?

Before you say, "Yes," let me throw a little more out there for you to think about.

The Called Strike maneuver in the Warrior's book is the Conan RPG's answer to called shots in D&D. It's requires a BAB +3 to attempt.

Why can't a 1st or 2nd level Barbarian attempted a Called Strike using the -8 penalty? Especially when a 1st or 2nd level Barbarian can attempt a Disarm and a Sunder (both attacks requiring the Barbarian to attack a specific target--which is basically a called shot...and they don't have the -8 penalty)?







OK, look a the Trip maneuver. It requires a weapon that is specifically rated to allow for Trips. The only weapon I can find in the entire 2E rulebook that is rated for the Trip maneuver is the Bill.

What if your player just watched an episode of Spartacus and, when his character is using a Hunting Spear, he tries to emulate what he saw on the show by sticking the haft of the spear betwixt his foe's legs, attempting to trip him.

How would you handle this as GM? The Hunting Spear isn't a "tripping" weapon according to the rules, but, clearly, sticking a pole between a fighting man's legs should have some chance of tripping him, yes?







One more example: The PCs are in a bar tavern fight. The common room is two stories high with a balcony on the second level so that the occupants of the rooms can look over onto the drinking tables. In the fight, one of the PCs is upstairs, and on his action, he wants to leap over the rail and fall down on one of the foes in the fight below. This is covered by the Death From Above combat maneuver in Hyboria's Fiercest. The only problem is that the maneuver requires BAB +4 or higher while the PC is a 3rd level Barbarian (with BAB +2).

How do you handle this. Does the Barbarian automatically miss his target and fall flat on the common room floor, taking falling damage, just because the PC doesn't have the requirements of the combat maneuver? Or, do you ignore the requirements and give him a chance to make the maneuver, maybe at a penalty to this throw? If you do, doesn't this open the can of worms that will allow PCs to try all sorts of stuff for which they don't have the requirements?

As a GM, how do you handle this situation?

 

[Dandu]

The PC provokes an AoO and possibly takes a penalty.

 

[Water Bob]

The PC provokes an AoO and possibly takes a penalty.

So, prerequisites mean nothing, then?

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I can't think of a basic action I wouldn't let a PC attempt. After all, it's not my PC! So I basically agree with Dandu.

My default in standard D&D is that an "untrained" (ie, unmet prereqs) basic maneuver provokes an AoO and incurs a -4 penalty on the attack, plus whatever circumstance modifiers might be appropriate. If it proves unbalancing and PCs start exploiting it over the long run, I'll change the penalty. No biggie.

I'm not familiar with Conan RPG, but since specified maneuvers apparently are already keyed to BAB, I might simply use the PC's BAB shortfall (or twice that, or something) as the penalty on the attack roll.

 

[Dandu]

So, prerequisites mean nothing, then?

If by avoiding AoOs and penalties, you mean nothing, then yes.

 

[Rhun]

I don't play Conan, but some of those prereqs don't seem to make sense. I would allow a PC to try any of those, and if he didn't have the prereq for the combat maneuver I would simply assign a penalty for the maneuver. He would not automatically fail. Of course, I try to never tell a player that his character "can't do that."

 

[frankthedm]

Well, just on a gut feeling, I'd say a AoO, penalty to hit AND a natural 20 is NOT automatically successful.

I would allow a PC to try any of those, and if he didn't have the prereq for the combat maneuver I would simply assign a penalty for the maneuver. He would not automatically fail. Of course, I try to never tell a player that his character "can't do that."

Regardless if it's a PC or NPC, combatants should have the same options. If the first level PC can have a chance for instant killing with a called shot, so should every first level NPC. I'm guessing those maneuvers were set up so low level mooks couldn't bone over higher level characters by "Shooting For 20's".

 

[Rhun]

Regardless if it's a PC or NPC, combatants should have the same options. If the first level PC can have a chance for instant killing with a called shot, so should every first level NPC.

You are absolutely correct. I should have clarified.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

OK, look a the Trip maneuver. It requires a weapon that is specifically rated to allow for Trips. The only weapon I can find in the entire 2E rulebook that is rated for the Trip maneuver is the Bill.

I'm not sure how much this has changed between 3.X and Conan, but you don't need a Trip-rated weapon to trip an opponent.

What a trip-rated weapon allows you to do is, if you massively fail your attempt and the opponent is going to trip you back, you can instead drop the weapon and remain standing. Elsewise, you fall down.

Many trip-rated weapons also provide a small bonus to trip attempts.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Many combat maneuvers have prerequisites, but what if a character that doesn't meet those requirements attempts to try the maneuver anyway? Does it automatically fail?

My answer: maybe. It depends on the maneuver.

OK, look a the Trip maneuver. It requires a weapon that is specifically rated to allow for Trips.

As Patryn says, not in 3E it doesn't.

What if your player just watched an episode of Spartacus and, when his character is using a Hunting Spear, he tries to emulate what he saw on the show by sticking the haft of the spear betwixt his foe's legs, attempting to trip him.

How would you handle this as GM?

I'd treat it as an unarmed Trip attack.

The Hunting Spear isn't a "tripping" weapon according to the rules, but, clearly, sticking a pole between a fighting man's legs should have some chance of tripping him, yes?

Sure, just like sweeping him with your own leg would. If you look at the "trip weapons," you'll see that none of them are just long, straight poles (despite the fact that you can very definitely use long, straight poles to trip people). So there is more to being a "trip weapon" than just being suitable for tripping people; it has to be especially well-suited to tripping people. A hunting spear or quarterstaff isn't good enough to gain the benefits of a "trip weapon," but nothing stops you from trying to Trip someone with it anyway.

One more example: The PCs are in a bar tavern fight. The common room is two stories high with a balcony on the second level so that the occupants of the rooms can look over onto the drinking tables. In the fight, one of the PCs is upstairs, and on his action, he wants to leap over the rail and fall down on one of the foes in the fight below. This is covered by the Death From Above combat maneuver in Hyboria's Fiercest. The only problem is that the maneuver requires BAB +4 or higher while the PC is a 3rd level Barbarian (with BAB +2).

How do you handle this.

Jump check followed by a touch attack to initiate a grapple (if he wants to wrestle with the opponent) or an unarmed Trip attack (if he wants to knock his opponent down). Either way, he gets +1 on the touch attack roll for attacking from higher ground and an approving nod from the DM for adding some cinematic flair to the combat.