Question about power-gaming.

[Moff_Tarkin]

I have a quick question. Sorry if it has been asked before, but it may be the deciding factor over how eager I am about 4th edition.

How bad is power gaming and munchkin in 4th edition compared to 3.5. I know in 3.5, if you knew where to look, you could pull crazy power-gaming feats, like stacking attack and damage bonuses from a dozen different places, or combine feats/abilities from random books to make really overpowered characters.

Maybe its something I have read or just wishful thinking, but I was assuming that 4th edition would not be so bad in terms of power-gaming. I guess at the beginning there will only be the base books, so that would cut down on people taking weird things from obscure sources, but do the 4th edition rules support munchkins as much as 3.5?

One more thing. Can you use the 4th edition rules to play a monster from the monsters manual like you can in 3.5? We have a guy that refuses to play unless he can be something crazy like a dragon. We usually give him what he wants because a dragon with the same ECL of the party is so weak he is just a joke.

 

[Yaezakura]

Right now, power gaming is rather limited. Attack and Damage bonuses are limited in number. Splat books may expand the options, but I don't see it ever becoming the problem it was in 3.5.

As for that player of yours... The MM only includes a few humanoid races as possible PC choices. Most monsters simply aren't suitable as a PC. And with the way monsters in 4th edition are designed, they don't follow the same rules that a PC does, so it's really hard to cram it in without basically making a "PC-Friendly" version of the creature from scratch.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

What do you mean by attack and damage bonuses being limited in number? Do you mean there is a limited amount of options to raise those factors, or that there is a cap?

I think a cap would be interesting, thats how mutants and masterminds does it. But a friend of mine thinks that would make everyone the same as everyone would be at the cap.

 

[Yaezakura]

I mean that there are few options for them, and the bonuses they give are rather small. They're more about long-term increased effectiveness instead of novaing something in a single turn.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

I suppose a fire-breathing dragon-man wouldn't satisfy his appetite for bizzare nearly enough then. Yes, you can play a few races out of the MM, though there are no longer ECL adjustments.

I don't have the books. From what I have read, power gamers will love this edition as much or more than 3.5 but in a different way. Feats aren't in-and-of-themselves combo-tastic but added to a mirad of powers plus a few vague rules (I'm looking at you immediate-interupt-move-action) will quickly frustrate a DM.

There are a few threads on the forum describing uber ranger, rogue, warlock characters.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

Where theres a will theres a way!
Munchins shal enherit the ... Plane?

The meeK? Nah, the meek are just easy XP!

 

[tallyrand]

What you need to watch out for now, it not the Munchkin Character, but the Munchkin Party. If your resident Powergamer wants to "help" the other players craft their characters then watch out.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Well, there's I think two builds that can one-shot Orcus and at least one infinite loop that's been found so far

First rule of munchkins, powergamers, and min/maxers: they will always, always, find a way.

 

[Nifft]

How bad is power gaming and munchkin in 4th edition compared to 3.5.

4e is both better and worse.

It's worse in that you are required to power-game a bit. Because the mathematical skeleton underlying the system is tight, every +1 counts, so you really, really want an 18 in your "attack stat" and there's hardly any room to deviate.

It's better in that this is both obvious, and not particularly difficult. Everyone should start on this (relatively) level playing field.

Feats have been toned down to a nearly uniform level of "that's nice" -- there are hardly any "good" feats that aren't race or class specific.

It's still possible to optimize, but it's much harder to get frightening results.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Well, there's I think two builds that can one-shot Orcus and at least one infinite loop that's been found so far

Both of the "one-shot" builds rely on a single broken power. That's easy to fix.

Which infinite loop are you talking about? If it's the one I wrote, it's hardly game breaking (though it is funny).

Cheers, -- N