Question about Sleep (Wizard Attack 1)

[Maudragon]

I know this has been asked before, but I was not able to find it in this forum.

What happens if you take damage while you are asleep as the result of a sleep spell? Will you wake as per the rules for "Sleeping and Waking Up" or, no matter what happens, you stay asleep till you pass your saving throw?

In my opinion, sleep magically induces the unconscious state, but nothing in the spell text prevents to apply the same rules for waking up, since the state of the creature is unconscious in both cases.

Please, let me know. Ciao,

mao

 

[Mort_Q]

Current consensus is that by RAW, a creature that is unconscious due to the Sleep spell power does not awaken when they take damage.

 

[Venthrac]

I had asked this same thing yesterday, in fact, and there was a good discussion about it. MortQ sums it up nicely.

 

[erik_the_guy]

Sneak attack

 

[Maudragon]

I had asked this same thing yesterday, in fact, and there was a good discussion about it. MortQ sums it up nicely.

I got a reply from Wizards Customer Service. The sleep produced by the power is a magic sleep and thus can be ended by a save only. I disagree with this interpretation since nowhere in the text is implied that the sleep is different from a natural one (the cause may be different, but the result is not) and furthermore nowhere is written in the rules that only a save can end a condition. Personally I would like to read some official rulings about this matter.

 

[Switchback]

The section on Durations on page 278 of the PHB support Wizards answer.

Conditional Durations: These effects last until a specified event occurs.

Save Ends: The effect ends when the target makes a successful saving throw against it.

It doesn't matter what the fluff is. They may be turned to stone as well as sleeping for all that matters. The only way they are getting up is to make that saving throw.

Furthermore, the spell would be useless in if it simply put creatures in normal sleep. Simply yelling at someone as a Free Action can wake them from natural sleep, which a creature's allies would obviously do instantly if they could the moment they saw their buddies get the spell cast on them. Even that would rarely be necessary as common sense would tell you the noise of a large battle or melee alone would wake someone naturally sleeping.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

I got a reply from Wizards Customer Service. The sleep produced by the power is a magic sleep and thus can be ended by a save only. I disagree with this interpretation since nowhere in the text is implied that the sleep is different from a natural one (the cause may be different, but the result is not) and furthermore nowhere is written in the rules that only a save can end a condition. Personally I would like to read some official rulings about this matter.

The only thing in the description that implies it puts you to sleep is the name of the spell. No where in the description does it state that you put the enemy to sleep. It says you put them unconscious, which has a specific definition. When you're asleep you're always unconscious but when you're unconscious you're not always asleep. Anything that says "save ends" is implicitly ended only by a save or the end of the encounter.

 

[Maudragon]

The only thing in the description that implies it puts you to sleep is the name of the spell. No where in the description does it state that you put the enemy to sleep.

Well, Sleep is defined in the Keywords (PHB, page 55) as "powers that cause sleep or uncosciousness."

It says you put them unconscious, which has a specific definition. When you're asleep you're always unconscious but when you're unconscious you're not always asleep.

Yes, as in the case of sleep power. You are uncoscious and asleep.

Anything that says "save ends" is implicitly ended only by a save or the end of the encounter.

The matter in my opionion is simple: we have an exception ("Sleeping and Waking Up", PHB, page 263) that could work in addition (not in substitution) to the rule "(save ends)", PHB, page 57. Other exceptions are Rituals. If there is no other way to get rid of an effect, than the ritual "Remove Affliction" does not make sense at all.

Ciao

 

[James McMurray]

Well, Sleep is defined in the Keywords (PHB, page 55) as "powers that cause sleep or uncosciousness."

The Sleep spell causes unconsciousness.

Yes, as in the case of sleep power. You are uncoscious and asleep.

Not according to the Hit: entry on the spell itself.

The matter in my opionion is simple: we have an exception ("Sleeping and Waking Up", PHB, page 263) that could work in addition (not in substitution) to the rule "(save ends)", PHB, page 57. Other exceptions are Rituals.

If it's normal Sleep, it's worthless against anything that's mildly intelligent and not alone.

If there is no other way to get rid of an effect, than the ritual "Remove Affliction" does not make sense at all.

Can you explain the reasoning behind that? Remove Affliction mentions all sorts of things it can do.

 

[Maudragon]

The Sleep spell causes unconsciousness.

Or sleep.

Not according to the Hit: entry on the spell itself.

I have found it. There are two more rogue powers that cause the unconscious condition: knockout and garrote grip. In both powers, the "Hit" effect includes one additional save condition: "If the unconscious target takes any damage, it is no longer uncoscious." Thus, since this additional clause is missing in the sleep power description, you can wake up only on a successful save. I am not happy with this conclusion, but it is consistent after all.

Why is this clause missing? Is it an exception to the simple rule? Was it removed on purpose? If only a few monsters are immune to sleep, then this power can be very effective from level 1 to level 30 since you can always miss one or more saves in a row. However, the same holds true when sleep is used against the characters.

Ciao