My point is not that I'm surprised about it -- I clearly got the memo we shouldn't fight this guy (as for Ekko and Rose, they wouldn't care even if they knew his stats up front I suppose). I'm fine with the outcome given the Nat 1 Stealth.
In terms of discussing the point as a whole, I mean mostly that it is extremely subjective trying to convey by language something's relative power level, and I may have acted differently if Quinsel perhaps understood the signals you were trying to convey, which I as the player didn't interpret in the same way. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad.
If you asked me what I thought his level was, I would have gone with 8 to 10 tops, likely 7: The barring of the doors was quite possibly "module fiat" written into the module. We've seen "module fiat" repeatedly. It almost certainly is fiat, I doubt there's a full stat block power "Bar Door; Encounter Power; Leone bars one cave entrance using conveniently-present bars of iron. Breaking these is a DC 16 strength check." If it's written at all, it's probably a sentence stating matter-of-fact that he blocks the door, and it's a DC 16 strength check.
That inherently is why I can't judge what kind of "weight" the action should hold. I admit it is a problem of 4e that you can't represent by its rules things like this. But because of that, I personally have no reference point for what it means to block a door in that fashion. Maybe in the module it says "because of his epic mastery and control over metal, Leone can do this kind of crazy thing not covered by the rules" but we didn't read that part.
*Is* Leone blocking the door really much different than a DC 16 Hold Portal ritual that either I or Ekko might perform for instance? Would I have known if I made an Arcana check? (Real question)
Compare Leone here to Adventure 1, where the "paragon" Eladrin fire assassin blew up boats left and right off camera. Even Paragon attack powers wouldn't account for that unless he hit all the firepowder stores -- that was more module fiat, but the point was pretty straightforward, "that guy blows up entire ships."
Then when we fought him (Asrabey?), he was tough but not invincible. It was written into the module that he was now "hurt" by the time we meet him. (Though I generally question having much higher level NPCs written into adversarial roles when combat is an option and warranted by the situation, and egged-on by the NPC, as it was then).
Maybe my meeting that NPC colored the situation: It seemed improbable by comparison that people stronger than him, the several-hundred-year-old Elite Eladrin Enforcer sent from the Feywild on a special mission, would suddenly appear out of nowhere.
As far as "signals" though, keep in mind we had been "chasing" Asrabey for almost the entirety of the adventure, and witnessed many instances of him doing crazy-off-the-wall epic stuff. Foreshadowing by the bucket.
He blew up a couple of boats with all hands on deck, teleported almost a mile or something, demonstrated powerful attack magic (or magic weapons) repeatedly as he cut his way through dozens of NPC soldiers ahead of us, whipped out a clearly-epic magic item that let us all walk through dimensions for a little while, was recognized by face and name by the Duchess who was the "mastermind" of the adventure (and she was scared of him) -- Asrabey got a real drum roll introduction.
This guy Leone shows up unannounced after we drive off what we've up to this point assumed was the Big Bad (or the Big Bad's right-hand man).
Unannounced at least to me -- I recall nothing suggesting his existence before this point. He comes riding in a carriage drawn by what looks like Phantom Steeds (another ritual, relatively easy, though presumably his were undead ghosts and also in the realm of "module fiat"), surrounded by ghost-mooks we just killed several of.
Quinsel still has no idea who he is after he gives his name and tries a History check to place the personage. From a story standpoint, sure he is some guy that was hiding in the shadows, but "I've never heard of you" is not the reaction expected from most near-epic entities.
The part about stripping Adarun of all his metal and throwing it at him was kind of a "WTF?" moment, but not enough for me to discount it as more than a "He's an NPC, a wizard did it" explanation. Partially the fact that he kept hiding after that also suggested maybe that wasn't a thing he could really do "at will." What I do know is that he can move some metal folding chairs around at will ... uh, handy? Honestly a level 1 Mage Hand could practically pull off the same stunt.
It got dark strangely, but that was not explained as being related to Leone. Still not sure what happened, just a planar shift?
So the evidence (I feel) I had to this point was that "He's a powerful new enemy NPC guy maybe related to the next adventure. We're already beat up, so let's not start another fight now if we can help it."
If the metal manipulation was intended to convey his epic power, speaking as a player that didn't work for me. Not nearly impressive or foreshadowed enough.
Here is what would have communicated it to me:
1. If he had led with the "All metal (including his big carriages) fly around in the air in a shrapnel tornado menacingly and he doesn't break a sweat, and if we enter the area take 5d10 damage and get knocked prone"
2. "You recognize his family crest from some obscure book -- rumors speak of an unfathomably powerful nethermancer many hundreds of years old originally out of Crissilyir. He is said to live in a personal fiefdom he rules with a magical iron fist. Not even the Crissilyir Clergy can refuse his demands. Harkover Lee used to be his apprentice." (Only slight exaggeration.)
3. One or more of his underlings "offends" him in some way, so he blows their heads up quite spectacularly to serve as an example. Then maybe reanimates them as zombies, and blows their heads up again. Spectacularly.
4. A statement "You are observing what is at least a level 20 magical effect that he can perform at will." This method is simplest and most direct I feel. It instantaneously speaks to me directly as a player saying "Here Be Dragons." EDIT: There is no room in that statement for my "Player Ego" to misconstrue.
Another Player
Some thoughts on this encounter, and the adventure in general. In general, D&D isn't set up up to handle big level spreads. 4E is worse than most because of how tightly coupled the attack and damage math is. I don't know what the stats of the guys in the Temple were, but for me that was a really good example of an 'Oh
!' encounter, with tough skirmishers and artillery in unfavorable terrain, and a boss that is at our level is tough and deadly, but doable. I'd guess the Bleak Gate Killer is maybe a Level 6 Solo, which with some buddies makes for a scary encounter.
After that, the encounter with Leone is not well placed. This might be down to DMing styles, but narratively we deserve a clean win at this point. We've traced a bunch of obscure leads, saved the day a couple of times, gotten our hands dirty working for a crime lord, beat up a more powerful NPC who yanked our chains back at the start of the adventure, and finally rescued an important witness and the documents. We've worked hard and played smart. Having some god-like NPC show up without even a chance to savor our victory, trap us, and threaten our lives and the evidence that could solve this case, is just cheap.
From a design standpoint, a Level 20 Solo in 4e against a party like us will be a TPK. We'll never hit, he'll never miss, and he probably has enough movement modes that we can't even run. This doesn't mean that Leone shouldn't exist, but that if he shows up this point he should be written as a skill challenge focused on escape and survival. And for players that don't listen to reason, there should be a 'getting captured' failure condition.
I've been having a lot of fun with this game, but 'The Dying Skyseer' hasn't been as tightly plotted as Chapter I. We started with the murder of Nilasa Hume, but rapidly hit dead-ends with Recklinghausen and Officer Porter as our best leads. I don't think anything we've done could've expedited following the evidence from the scene of the crime. Heward Sechim and the problems with unsafe factories and such was fun and gave us valuable allies, but wasn't directly tied to the case. Likewise, everything with Nevard is a similar side plot. Only taking the Griffon brought us closer to resolving the case.
Right now, we have evidence of a bunch of conspiracies that threaten Flint and Risur. I'm willing to bet that the documents will reveal that the Flametongue was made using stolen Danoran material, but we didn't learn that until recently. More worrying is the Witchoil Golem people, who strike me as Dr. Mengele-style evil, and who might be linked to Mayor Macbannin, who is supposed to be protecting the city against existential threats. There's also Kell and the Family and Los Hermanos Draconis and the arson campaign, which was set in motion to cover up... something... possibly the thefts for the Coaltongue. But basically I have no idea what's going on, and that's not good.
I hope that this is constructive criticism. If there were some specific things I'd like communicated to the adventure writers, it's that I could've used a murder-related plot advancement somewhere between the first encounter with Officer Porter and the battle at the ruined temple, and that the opposition could use some fleshing out. Shadowy conspiracies are good for some things, but it seems like the forces at work behind this Danor-Risur alliance are trying to end the world, have committed numerous crimes in pursuit of ending the world, and have gotten in the player's way. We need to have an identifiable face and a way to hit them, or at least a counter-balancing opposed conspiracy. Some thoughts on this encounter, and the adventure in general. In general, D&D isn't set up up to handle big level spreads. 4E is worse than most because of how tightly coupled the attack and damage math is. I don't know what the stats of the guys in the Temple were, but for me that was a really good example of an 'Oh
!' encounter, with tough skirmishers and artillery in unfavorable terrain, and a boss that is at our level is tough and deadly, but doable. I'd guess the Bleak Gate Killer is maybe a Level 6 Solo, which with some buddies makes for a scary encounter.
After that, the encounter with Leone is not well placed. This might be down to DMing styles, but narratively we deserve a clean win at this point. We've traced a bunch of obscure leads, saved the day a couple of times, gotten our hands dirty working for a crime lord, beat up a more powerful NPC who yanked our chains back at the start of the adventure, and finally rescued an important witness and the documents. We've worked hard and played smart. Having some god-like NPC show up without even a chance to savor our victory, trap us, and threaten our lives and the evidence that could solve this case, is just cheap.
From a design standpoint, a Level 20 Solo in 4e against a party like us will be a TPK. We'll never hit, he'll never miss, and he probably has enough movement modes that we can't even run. This doesn't mean that Leone shouldn't exist, but that if he shows up this point he should be written as a skill challenge focused on escape and survival. And for players that don't listen to reason, there should be a 'getting captured' failure condition.
I've been having a lot of fun with this game, but 'The Dying Skyseer' hasn't been as tightly plotted as Chapter I. We started with the murder of Nilasa Hume, but rapidly hit dead-ends with Recklinghausen and Officer Porter as our best leads. I don't think anything we've done could've expedited following the evidence from the scene of the crime. Heward Sechim and the problems with unsafe factories and such was fun and gave us valuable allies, but wasn't directly tied to the case. Likewise, everything with Nevard is a similar side plot. Only taking the Griffon brought us closer to resolving the case.
Right now, we have evidence of a bunch of conspiracies that threaten Flint and Risur. I'm willing to bet that the documents will reveal that the Flametongue was made using stolen Danoran material, but we didn't learn that until recently. More worrying is the Witchoil Golem people, who strike me as Dr. Mengele-style evil, and who might be linked to Mayor Macbannin, who is supposed to be protecting the city against existential threats. There's also Kell and the Family and Los Hermanos Draconis and the arson campaign, which was set in motion to cover up... something... possibly the thefts for the Coaltongue. But basically I have no idea what's going on, and that's not good.
I hope that this is constructive criticism. If there were some specific things I'd like communicated to the adventure writers, it's that I could've used a murder-related plot advancement somewhere between the first encounter with Officer Porter and the battle at the ruined temple, and that the opposition could use some fleshing out. Shadowy conspiracies are good for some things, but it seems like the forces at work behind this Danor-Risur alliance are trying to end the world, have committed numerous crimes in pursuit of ending the world, and have gotten in the player's way. We need to have an identifiable face and a way to hit them, or at least a counter-balancing opposed conspiracy.
and more
I agree. Leone showing up with no warning is like a "Rocks Fall" moment. I'm sure he existed in the writer's head all along as the mastermind, but as it is, this feels about as meaningful as an old-school random encounter (roll d% and consult the table -- oh look, the Terrasque).
It would feel a lot different if we knew this guy from the beginning and had dealt with him enough that it made sense from our perspective for him to be getting in our way.
The Nazis at the beginning of that Indiana Jones movie(s) works as a set-up -- because they get screwed later. And everyone knows who they are immediately.
It seems in this scene something like that is being attempted here, but the difference is that Indy is a character on screen 5 minutes into a movie, and we've been controlling these PCs it's happening to for a long time. Undoubtedly we are expected to stick it to Leone in the end, but that's what ... 15 levels away?
Now, it would be substantially different if Leone instead of being some random guy revealed himself as being Mayor MacBannin all along. If that's his real identity anyway, it should have been made obvious at the beginning of this encounter, so we have some stake in this person and the sense "we know where you live" and may have been more receptive to his side of the story ("Why would the mayor do such a thing" etc.).
The plot has been all over the place, like we're trying to fit three separate adventures into one unified whole within the same module (as opposed to loosely connected adventure paths). I don't think every single plot point in the campaign has to be revealed in adventure 2 -- save some for later
.
My impression is also a lot of "That lead we had ... is gone. But wait, there's something shiny over there! Let's follow it and hope it connects to something relevant!" I've thought the adventure was "over" several times now -- because there's so many different subplots involving horrendous threats to the city's wellbeing that we keep churning through, except none of them really got any resolution (yet).
Deep down I know they're all connected somehow, but even at this point it's very tenuous, almost Scooby-Doo. "The villain was the groundskeeper! You know, that person you saw for only one scene early on, and his reason for doing the crime in the way he did it still makes no sense (And where were the actual police? Why is this dog talking?)!"
Or like a game of Clue, except everybody did it, and for different reasons, and they all report to this one guy who isn't even in the mansion at all, but they don't know that fact, and they don't even think they 'did it.'
I find it kind of hard to believe that the same person/people wrote adventure 1 and adventure 2.
If we had one (or even two) actual targets to pursue, we could let the other incidental crazyness slide more easily. Even now we're chasing shadows of shadows. If Porter or MacBannin were the Big Bad for this adventure, even if they ultimately worked for someone else (as is standard), then there'd be "a face." As it stands, now I'm thinking, "Is Porter really anybody special at all, or is he just a higher-level mook?" "Is MacBannin really a bad guy, or is he going to turn out even now to be a good guy we were sort of tricked into doubting?"
Forcefully: This adventure was a lot of fun. The GM and players are great. The underlying plot though shows weaknesses and feels railroady. I've seen much worse. But this is sort of an over-reaching plot, failure-to-meet-expectations situation.
I feel for the writer as a fellow GM -- there's the attempt to make set piece encounters that are memorable and "film-noir" drama. Ever-unfolding mysteries. Different options to solve the ultimate mystery, the players don't have to really pursue everything. But those kinds of things are just damned hard to do without a very specific group of players in mind, and will have poor showing on the "mass market."
I suspect half of us kind of got bored with the detectivework after a while. Particularly because it never seemed to lead anywhere except to a completely separate mystery we weren't even looking for, and there was rarely the same NPC in any two scenes. This module was like an entire campaign forced into a single adventure booklet: too much too fast.
I liked the characters and their motivations, and definitely feel that the "city" is a real place with lots of stories. I just don't want to deal with 100% of the city's stories all at once.
