Question about the new Hold spells

[LokiDR]

I'll wait until the rules are out to pass final judgment, but this still seems wrong to me. So in 3.5e, a wizard can no longer instantly kill a fighter, but the fighter's full attack will still pulp the wizard in a single go? Where's the justice in that?

A buff out wizard can survive a few rounds, enough to get a few spells off. It also means that wizards need help, facilitating a party (and people playing non-casters).

I have heard that a disintegrate from a 15th level caster will do about the same damage as a harm from a similar level cleric. That equates to about 45d6. This puts insta-kills in line with area of effect damage spells, and makes much more sense to me.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

A buff out wizard can survive a few rounds, enough to get a few spells off. It also means that wizards need help, facilitating a party (and people playing non-casters).

I have heard that a disintegrate from a 15th level caster will do about the same damage as a harm from a similar level cleric. That equates to about 45d6. This puts insta-kills in line with area of effect damage spells, and makes much more sense to me.

What buffs were you speaking of because some of the core ones were redued to 1/min a level and so the wizard wont have them p to be buffed out. And will last all of 3 seconds before the fighter pulps him round one.

 

[LokiDR]

What buffs were you speaking of because some of the core ones were redued to 1/min a level and so the wizard wont have them p to be buffed out. And will last all of 3 seconds before the fighter pulps him round one.

Improved Invis, stoneskin, false life. Except for false life, you need to know about the combat a few minutes ahead of time.

Besides that, 45d6 can easily kill a 15 level fighter, there is just a chance it won't.

 

[Darklone]

I like 3.5 every day more.

"They stole my houserules!!!"

 

[Celtavian]

Re

This change to Hold person and all the hold monster spells was highlighted in one of the 3.5 edition articles in Dragon Magazine a month or two back. No specifics were given, other than "you get a save each round to break the spell." This was done because they felt that spells which made the opponents sit out the combat just because of one failed save was unfair. It was also why many of the spells such as Wail of the banshee, disintengration, destruction, and implosion were altered; they now do extra dice of damage, with the implosion/disintegration/death occurring if the target goes below zero hit points.

Is the change to high level death spells confirmed yet? I didn't think 9th level spells were going to change. The change to Implosion is cool, because that is explainable. The change to Wail of the Banshee and Destruction will not be happening in my campaign if they really have changed. No way to explain why a simulated banshee wail and unholy energies meant to destroy a person are survived even on a missed save, at least not in a reasonable manner. They are really working hard to eliminate the risk from D&D aren't they.

They put counterspells in the game, why don't they expect players to use them. Does the WotC design team feel we the players and DM's are too ignorant to use spells like Death Ward? If these changes are in any way a reflection of the capabilities of the players, then I don't like how the design team thinks of us.

 

[Halivar]

What happens you you break hold while being targeted for a coup de grace? That was always my favorite thing to do to held people.

I figure, I'm swingin' at the guy... do I have to roll to hit him now, or do I automatically miss?

 

[Li Shenron]

What happens you you break hold while being targeted for a coup de grace? That was always my favorite thing to do to held people.

I figure, I'm swingin' at the guy... do I have to roll to hit him now, or do I automatically miss?

Can the two things happen at the same time? Isn't it a FRA to coup-de-grace?

I can imagine that coup-de-grace could have been exactly one reason why they might have changed Hold.

 

[Halivar]

Correct. It is a full round action.

Once we got a hold monster off on a red dragon that had been tearing me (the tank) to pieces. So, it's held. FRA, I coup de grace, and it's dead.

NOW, since it was a FRA, the dragon should (under 3.5 rules) get a saving throw against the hold.

What happens in that case? Roll or miss?

 

[Li Shenron]

Correct. It is a full round action.

Once we got a hold monster off on a red dragon that had been tearing me (the tank) to pieces. So, it's held. FRA, I coup de grace, and it's dead.

NOW, since it was a FRA, the dragon should (under 3.5 rules) get a saving throw against the hold.

What happens in that case? Roll or miss?

...are you telling me that in 3.5e a FRA is completed at the beginning of your next turn, such as a full-round spell?

 

[Halivar]

Umm.. seeing as how the FRA also started at the beginning of my turn... yes. It's always been that way (p. 121 PHB). A FRA consumes all your actions for a round, not all your actions for two rounds (if you were insinuating that it should be completed at the end of my turn).

Of course, it provokes AoO's like normal.

Coup de grace is on p. 133 of the PHB.