Question anent "RotG -- Making Magic Items"

[dvvega]

Is this actually correct??

Actually, a 5th-level Wizard cannot make +5 Enhancement bonus swords because an Enhancement bonus has a special prereq - that the caster level of the creator must be at least 3x the bonus.

He could, however, create a +10 equivalent bonus sword, so long as it was a +1 weapon with all kinds of nifty abilities (and he had enough XP and gold to spare! ).

IMC we have always played that all bonuses (enhancement or otherwise) add up and that determines the minimum caster level. Either we've read it wrong, or we've read it right ... which is it?

As for the level pre-requisites in the DMG

... in one of my campaigns we have been using them as a guide as to magic item availability to control munchkinism. For example ... if a Pearl of Power requires an 11th level caster, we try not to have them floating around until the party is around 11th level. This has worked out really well especially compared to the non-restricted camapaign I run.

So for example most ability boost items don't appear till around level 8 (see Cloak of Charisma).

Works wonders to counter the low-level monster-PCs.

D

 

[Trainz]

IMC we have always played that all bonuses (enhancement or otherwise) add up and that determines the minimum caster level. Either we've read it wrong, or we've read it right ... which is it?

You read it wrong.

As per the Rules of the Game: Creating Magic Items part IV (weapons, armors and shields):

Prerequisites: To make a magic weapon, armor, or shield, you need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor item creation feat. (The feat itself has a caster level of 5th as a prerequisite.) The creator also must have a caster level at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon, armor, or shield. If the item has a special ability that is priced as an enhancement bonus increase (see the section on costs), that ability has its own caster level requirement (as shown in the description for the special ability), and the creator must meet the higher of the two caster level prerequisites. For example, to create a +2 longsword, a character must have a caster level of at least 6th. The keen weapon property is the equivalent of a +1 increase to the weapon's enhancement bonus, which requires a caster level of at least 3rd (lower, in fact, than the caster level you need to choose or use the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). To create a +2 keen longsword, a character must have a caster level of at least 6th, which is the higher of the two prerequisites. This item would be priced as a +3 magic weapon, but the caster level prerequisite is still 6th, not 9th (as it would be if the weapon's actual enhancement bonus was +3).

 

[Scion]

do you mean that you play it takes a 30th level caster to make a +10 total enhancement weapon?

Also, pearls of power require you to be able to cast the spell level it makes, which of course doesnt make sense at all if it requires you to also be a 17th level caster

As it takes money, and sometimes exp, along with a feat to make these things, what is the problem?

Pearl of power 1: 1kgp
Cheap, potentially nice to have a few of. higher level ones are much more expensive, not quite as useful

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Is this actually correct??

I'm always correct.

Hey! Stop laughing!

But seriously, folks, I'm correct on this one. There are two concepts to keep in mind.

First, there is the Enhancement bonus of a weapon or piece of armor. This is the actual bonus that is added to to-hit and damage rolls (in the case of weapons) or to the armor bonus to AC (in the case of armor or a shield).

This aspect of the magical weapon has a special prerequisite:

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.

--and--

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.

Then, there's what's known as the effective bonus of an item. The effective bonus of an item is equal to its enhancement bonus plus any special abilities listed as a bonus, rather than a flat cost. This includes such things as Flaming (+1) and Dancing (+4).

An item's effective bonus is used only for determining how expensive an item is to make and not a minimum caster level because, since it is not actually an Enhancement bonus, it does not share the prerequisites of an Enhancment bonus (specifically, CL = 3 * bonus).

Thus, a 5th-level Wizard could create a +1 flaming burst (+2), shocking burst (+2), defending (+1), keen (+1), Elemental Bane (+1), Elf Bane (+1), Aberration Bane (+1) longsword (+1 Enhancement, +9 other, +10 total effective bonus) so long as he had access to the appropriate spells (likely through a wand or staff, or through a cooperating caster). It would cost him a pretty penny, of course - 100,000 gp and 8,000 xp - but he could do it.

In other words, Core D&D doesn't contain Epic-level rules. Therefore, the maximum caster level is 20th. Why, then, would the tables include the possiblity of items that require Epic caster levels to complete (since you'd need to be at least CL 21 to make a +7 equivalent bonus sword or armor, let alone a +10 equivalent!)?

EDIT:

To add, I disagree partially with the RotG article quoted above, though it largely supports my arguments.

Specifically, I disagree with what the author argues is meant by the line, "the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met." The effective bonus increase is not an enhancement bonus, and therefore rules applying to enhancement bonuses to not apply. The prerequisites for an extra ability are based on the spells required to create that ability. Thus, Keen does not have a prerequisite of CL 3 because it is a +1 equivalent bonus ability (as the article states); rather, it has a prerequisite of having access to spell Keen Edge - which means a minimum CL of 5 (since Keen Edge is a Wiz / Sor 3 spell).

Note that, regardless of whether you buy my argument or not, both the RotG article and I are arguing for a relatively low CL prerequiste for a Keen weapon, much lower than the CL 10 that dcollins's ruling calls for.

EDIT:

Continuing, I think the important line from the rules is the following:

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

Note that the requirement is "minimum level needed to cast the needed spell" and not "at least as high as the CL listed in the item's description."

Thus, since the requirement for a Pearl of Power is "must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled," the minimum caster level for a PoP 1 is CL 1: you need to be able to cast a level 1 spell - any level 1 spell - in order to create a PoP 1, which requires (at least) CL 1.

dcollins's ruling (and, to a lesser extent, my own) brings up an interesting paradox. In order to create a +1 Wounding longsword, dcollins would posit that you must be a 10th-level caster (the property lists CL 10). However, its prerequisite is the spell Mordenkainen's Sword (or Mage's Sword for the SRD types). This spell is a Sor / Wiz 7 spell - and therefore cannot be cast by a CL 10 Wizard, who only has access to 5th-level spells at this point. My own interpretation would be that 10th is merely an average CL for a randomly generated Wounding property on a randomly generated magic sword - which is likewise impossible.

In this case, the CL on which dcollins would like to hang his hat is right out, which sheds doubt on its validity in other cases.

By the RotG article, the minimum CL for Wounding is CL 6, because it is a +2 equivalent bonus property. This is even more ridiculous.

By my ruling, CL 10 is just a typo, and should really be CL 13 (the minimum needed to cast a level 7 spell).

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

In other words, Core D&D doesn't contain Epic-level rules.

Psst...yes it does. DMG has basic Epic rules and at least one monster in the MM has DR/Epic.

But you're right on the three times caster level interpretation. It does mean, though, that a +5 weapon would require a fifteenth level caster. Guess that's not so bad.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Psst...yes it does. DMG has basic Epic rules and at least one monster in the MM has DR/Epic.

Yeah, sorry.

I've only got a print version of the 3.0 DMG. My 3.5 version (the SRD) includes Epic rules because it includes much of the Epic Level Handbook - I didn't think they'd made it into the base DMG / MM.

 

[dcollins]

dcollins's ruling (and, to a lesser extent, my own) brings up an interesting paradox. In order to create a +1 Wounding longsword, dcollins would posit that you must be a 10th-level caster (the property lists CL 10). However, its prerequisite is the spell Mordenkainen's Sword (or Mage's Sword for the SRD types). This spell is a Sor / Wiz 7 spell - and therefore cannot be cast by a CL 10 Wizard, who only has access to 5th-level spells at this point. My own interpretation would be that 10th is merely an average CL for a randomly generated Wounding property on a randomly generated magic sword - which is likewise impossible.

In this case, the CL on which dcollins would like to hang his hat is right out, which sheds doubt on its validity in other cases.

This is frequently brought up, and so I previously included it in the "FAQ" section on my website. The truth is, this actually argues more strongly for the fact that Wondrous Item caster levels are fixed and non-alterable by the creator, because why would anyone set something like that to a lower level than their actual caster level? (Which you would argue is done "on average".) From the FAQ at the bottom of my website (http://superdan.net.home.comcast.net/dndfaq2.html):

The fact that "caster level" is in some cases lower than the prerequisite "spellcaster level" is in fact support for the fact that creators cannot choose to create such items at their own personal level, even if they wanted to. Furthermore, it is the precise reason that the parenthetical language on DMG p. 178 is necessary: "prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level".

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The truth is, this actually argues more strongly for the fact that Wondrous Item caster levels are fixed and non-alterable by the creator, because why would anyone set something like that to a lower level than their actual caster level?

Because it's generally cheaper to make something at caster level 3 than it is to make it at caster level 20?

EDIT to Add:

And, for those items whose price is independent of caster level, then the average CL merely represents an average specimen - as in, the vast majority of Apparati of Kwalish are made by archmages / high clerics (CL 19 in the description), and Pearls of Power are made by the same people (CL 17 - enough to cast 9th level spells, the minimum to create the most powerful pearl). Assuming they could meet the *actual* prerequisites, however, there's nothing stopping someone lower in level from creating them.

Note that the creator must still meet or exceed the item's caster level - so a 5th-level wizard cannot create a Belt of Giant Strength with CL 8 or 12 or 20, though he could create a +6 enhancement bonus Belt at CL 5.

 

[dvvega]

Prerequisites: To make a magic weapon, armor, or shield, you need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor item creation feat. (The feat itself has a caster level of 5th as a prerequisite.) The creator also must have a caster level at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon, armor, or shield. If the item has a special ability that is priced as an enhancement bonus increase (see the section on costs), that ability has its own caster level requirement (as shown in the description for the special ability), and the creator must meet the higher of the two caster level prerequisites.

I see where we went wrong ... we treated the enhancement equivalence of the abilities as enhancement bonuses.

However that covers a creator ... what of a modifier? Does a modifying wizard have to meet just the modification level? So I found a +2 Holy Flaming Bastard Sword and want to add Frost ... do I simply have to meet level 3?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm fairly certain that there's no difference between a creator and a modifier.

The only difference is that part of the price is already paid for you.

Also, I'm pretty certain any given item only has a single caster level.* Thus, you'd need to meet the prerequisite of [CL 6 (minimum for a +2 Enhancement weapon), the maximum of all of those abilities].

* - Can someone back me up on this?