Question: Bite + Con Poison = Dead

[KarinsDad]

Since the bite and posion happen at once, or the posion imediatly after, he would be dropped the damage from the bite, THEN the CON damage, leaving him at 5 HPs. This is assuming he had more than 5 after the bite, in which the CON damage only effectively lowers his save.

This is incorrect. There is no damage first, then CON lowering. It is one attack and they are simultaneous.

And, the CON poisoning does not do hit point damage, rather it lowers the total hit points you can take damage from.

From the SRD: "If a character's Constitution changes, modify that character's hit point total immediately.".


Although 3b is the correct answer, there is a slightly better way to think about it. Current total hit points.

Current Total Hit Points = normal total +/- CON modifiers due to external sources (e.g. poison, Endurance spells, Rage, etc.), minimum one per level.

So, in this case, looking for current total hit points becomes:

Current Total Hit Points = 15 - 20 = 5 minimum

So, when you take 10 points of damage from a 5 minimum, it becomes -5 hit points.


This way, your minimum is always considered equal to your level as opposed to figuring out the number of point you can possibly subtract based on average hit points (as the original poster did). Instead, subtract out level * CON modifier drop (i.e. 5 * 4 = 20, not 2 out of every 3).

 

[CRGreathouse]

This way, your minimum is always considered equal to your level as opposed to figuring out the number of point you can possibly subtract based on average hit points (as the original poster did). Instead, subtract out level * CON modifier drop (i.e. 5 * 4 = 20, not 2 out of every 3).

This gets really interesting when characters don't roll the same number for hit points every level. For example, a Ftr5 with Con 10 who gets max hps at level 1 and rolls 1 at each additional level has 14 hit points. If he takes 4 points of Con damage, should he be at 5 hit points or 12?

m(10-2)+m(1-2)+m(1-2)+m(1-2)+m(1-2) [where m means 'the result or 1, whichever is higher']
14-2*5, min 5

I leave this as an excercise to the reader.

 

[Artoomis]

This gets really interesting when characters don't roll the same number for hit points every level. For example, a Ftr5 with Con 10 who gets max hps at level 1 and rolls 1 at each additional level has 14 hit points. If he takes 4 points of Con damage, should he be at 5 hit points or 12?

m(10-2)+m(1-2)+m(1-2)+m(1-2)+m(1-2) [where m means 'the result or 1, whichever is higher']
14-2*5, min 5

I leave this as an excercise to the reader.

It a trivial exercise, You pretend his CON was 6 all along. thus, his hit points are:

10-2 +1 (min )+1 (min) +1 (min) +1 (min) = 12.

You DO NOT lose hit points per se, your bonus (penalty) to your hit points changes with the resultant change to your hit point total.

 

[KarinsDad]

It a trivial exercise, You pretend his CON was 6 all along. thus, his hit points are:

10-2 +1 (min )+1 (min) +1 (min) +1 (min) = 12.

You DO NOT lose hit points per se, your bonus (penalty) to your hit points changes with the resultant change to your hit point total.

Not quite.

You COULD do this, but how many people keep track of their hit points for every level to figure out just how much CON damage they took for each level?

And, how many DMs do it for all of their NPCs/creatures?

Answer: None and none.

So, the practical answer to his question is 5 hit points.

If I tell you that a 10 CON Fighter has 20 hit points at level 5, without knowing how many he got at each level, how can you answer anything other than a 4 CON damage lowering hit total by 10 hits down to 10?

 

[CRGreathouse]

If I tell you that a 10 CON Fighter has 20 hit points at level 5, without knowing how many he got at each level, how can you answer anything other than a 4 CON damage lowering hit total by 10 hits down to 10?

Con 10
Elite: 10+4d10 = 20
4d10 = 10
Best case: 10+7+1+1+1
Worst case: 10+3+3+2+2

In the best case, the fighter loses 4 hit points; in the worst, he loses 8. In neither case does he/she lose 10.

 

[CRGreathouse]

pretend his CON was 6 all along. thus, his hit points are:

10-2 +1 (min )+1 (min) +1 (min) +1 (min) = 12.

You DO NOT lose hit points per se, your bonus (penalty) to your hit points changes with the resultant change to your hit point total.

Quite correct.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

You COULD do this, but how many people keep track of their hit points for every level to figure out just how much CON damage they took for each level?

Keep in mind that levels can be lost. People really ought to keep track of the changes to their character from level to level.

 

[KarinsDad]

Con 10
Elite: 10+4d10 = 20
4d10 = 10
Best case: 10+7+1+1+1
Worst case: 10+3+3+2+2

In the best case, the fighter loses 4 hit points; in the worst, he loses 8. In neither case does he/she lose 10.

Yes, poor example on my part. The chances of rolling 10 on 4D10 rolls is extremely low.

And actually worst case would be: 10+3+3+3+1

But, the question stands. Without actual hit point per level information, how do you know the answer on how many to lose?

Do you stop the game to pull out a bunch of old character sheets? How about for the monsters?

The rough approximation method is the only practical one, even though it can be a little on the high side.

And actually, the rough approximation method might be the actual rule. I seem to recall something in the DMG near page 80 on Poison which talks about it. Gotta go look it up tonight.

Originally posted by Dr_Rictus
Keep in mind that levels can be lost. People really ought to keep track of the changes to their character from level to level.

True. But, unlike CON drain, do you actually stop the game in mid-combat and recalculate skills and hit points and to hit and damage and saves and feats, etc. when energy drained?

Old character sheets might not be a great source of information to this due to changes to some of these via magic items, etc.

Generally, the best (practically speaking) you can do in game is rough approximations, even on Energy Drain and especially in combat.

 

[Artoomis]

KarinsDad:

In our game, we always know how many hit points are from each level.

Out characer sheets look something like this:

Hit Points: 42 (10+4) + (8+4) + (3+4) + (5+4)

It really seems like the best way, and makes it easy to go back and check for errors in addition. We would certainly not consider doing it any other way.

For NPCs and monsters, well, no. You'd just take the points off per level. but they are just NPCs and monsters, so who cares if it is, perhaps, not quite accurate.

Cohorts would have their hit points recorded just like a POC, as would any animals companions, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

In our game, we always know how many hit points are from each level.

Out characer sheets look something like this:

Hit Points: 42 (10+4) + (8+4) + (3+4) + (5+4)

Yikes!

New functionality for Masterworks Tools.

I've never ever seen that in 24 years of gaming in any gaming system. You see something new every day.

Must be a real pain in the butt to figure out 12 points of CON loss at 18th level though.

And, of course, the rough approximation = the equation you are using when the CON gets drained down to 10 or higher. It is only when it goes below 10 that there could be a difference (e.g. if it drains to 8 and you never rolled a 1 on hit points, there would also be no difference).