Question: DEF bonus (from WoT)

[Dagredhel]

Hey there, everyone.

I'm interested in the Defensive Bonus rule-mechanic that I understand is an integral feature of Wheel of Time classes. From what I've heard, it sounds like it might be very useful for low-magic D&D campaigns, where characters can't rely on magic to lower their ACs. So... I was hoping that some kindhearted soul would be nice enough to post the Def progressions for the WoT classes, and maybe suggest their closest D&D equivalents for those that aren't obvious. I'd also be interested in whether this mechanic has been used in other d20 RPGs besides WoT, and to hear any comments people have about it. Thanks!

 

[Asmodean]

I'm not sure of the legality of posting def bonuses, so here's a class comparison.

Algai'd'siswai - Monk
Armsman - Fighter
Initiate - Wizard
Noble - no real equivalent
Wanderer - Rouge
Wilder - Sorcerer
Woodsman - Ranger

and the star wars d20 rpg has def bonuses as well.

 

[HyrumOWC]

Forbidden Kingdoms uses Defense instead of AC, with armor providing Protection, rather than making you harder to hit.

Hyrum.

 

[trancejeremy]

Well, it's mostly used in WoT because WoT characters (in the books) don't wear armor all that much.

Basically, for some characters (usually the non-combat types, but also the fighters that do wear armor - the Armsman), the Def bonus starts at +2, and improves by one every 3 levels (starting at 3rd). So it's +2 at first level, +2 at 2nd, +3 at 3rd, +4 at 6th, etc.

For the warrior chicks with spears, it starts at +4, and improves every 2nd level, starting at 2nd level. So, 2nd +5, 4th +6, 6th +7. They don't wear much, though.


For others, like Nobles, Wanderers (think Rogues), Woodsman (think Rangers), it starts at +3, and improves every 2 or 3 levels (it alternates). +3 at first, +4 at 2nd-4th, +5 at 5th-6th, +6 at 7th-9th, +7 at 10th-11th, +8 at 12-14th, and so on. (Alternating).

Anyway, it's definitely legal to give info like that, because while you can copyright the text of something, you can't really copyright rules, you'd have to patent them. And you can always use short excerpts for various purposes under the fair use clause.

 

[Dagredhel]

Thanks guys!

So, if I understand trancejeremy correctly, there are only three different progressions, and they look like this:

Class DEF bonus
Level poor medium good

1 +2 +3 +4
2 +2 +4 +5
3 +3 +4 +5
4 +3 +4 +6
5 +3 +5 +6
6 +4 +5 +7
7 +4 +6 +7
8 +4 +6 +8
9 +5 +6 +8
10 +5 +7 +9
11 +5 +7 +9
12 +6 +8 +10
13 +6 +8 +10
14 +6 +8 +11
15 +7 +9 +11
16 +7 +9 +12
17 +7 +10 +12
18 +8 +10 +13
19 +8 +10 +13
20 +8 +11 +14

Moreover, both Armsman (Fighters) and channeler (spellcaster) classes use the 'poor' progression, the caveat being that for the Armsman (only), DEF bonus stacks with armor. Is that right?

While I was (laboriously) charting the progressions above, a few questions occurrred to me:
1) Are there NPC classes in WoT equivalent to those in D&D, and if so, what are their DEF bonus progressions? (Are they worse than the 'poor' progression above?)
2) Do 'monsters' ever get DEF bonuses?
3) Is armor treated the same in WoT as D&D?
4) Are the progressions the same in Star Wars?

Besides the rule questions, I'd be very interested to find out whether anyone has tried using DEF in a D&D game, and with what result.

Thanks again!

 

[Asmodean]

1) yes, but only four, the rest have been removed: commoner, diplomat, expert, and warrior. all their def progressions start at 0, and get +1 every three levels starting at 3rd level

2) no, but you can give them levels in classes if you want

3) yes, but it is only really used by soldiers (armsmen) in the setting

4) yes, and another track that starts at 3 and gets +1 every two levels starting at 3rd level. the best track you typed out isn't used.

 

[Dagredhel]

Wow! You guys are great. All the rules questions (that I'm clever enough to think of asking) about DEF have been answered. Now that Asmodean and trancejeremy have provided a primer on how the mechanic is used, how about some feedback about its application in play? Would it be a good rule to use in a D&D game where only knights walk around in shiny armor, and magical protections are scarce?

 

[Asmodean]

that would be the perfect situation to use def bonus. but remember the armsman's armor compatability at level 3 or they'll quickly be outclassed.

if their AC is ever a problem because of def bonus... that's what ambushes are for. they will keep their def bonus but lose their dex bonus, which is usually enough to threaten them. a second level imperial officer with a blaster pistol nearly took out a 6th level jedi guardian that was untouchable otherwise when he was surprised.

I've run quite a few star wars games, but no WoT games. I'm thinking about running one on irc because none of my friends are willing to read the 6000+ pages in the saga and I'm not willing to explain the setting to them over a few days... sigh.

 

[Ron]

Wow! You guys are great. All the rules questions (that I'm clever enough to think of asking) about DEF have been answered. Now that Asmodean and trancejeremy have provided a primer on how the mechanic is used, how about some feedback about its application in play? Would it be a good rule to use in a D&D game where only knights walk around in shiny armor, and magical protections are scarce?

The problem with DEF bonus is that the advance of the ability of avoiding hits along the advancement of levels is already covered by hit points in D&D. You may consider fixing hit points (perhaps as the value of CON) and not increase them as new levels are added. I believe that the d20's rules in SW and WoT are broken in this respect because they allow both DEF and HP to increase with new levels.

DEF is not necessary to justify settings where wearing armor is not common. As in D&D, armor was really a big advantage in the real world. However, it is not comfortable, requires a lot of time to take care it, limits the user dexterity, as well as being very expensive and, in some cases, not allowed to be used by anyone save the nobility.

 

[drothgery]

DEF is not necessary to justify settings where wearing armor is not common. As in D&D, armor was really a big advantage in the real world. However, it is not comfortable, requires a lot of time to take care it, limits the user dexterity, as well as being very expensive and, in some cases, not allowed to be used by anyone save the nobility.

Except that the typical RPG player character
1) Has a lot of money
2) Is involved in combat a lot

The point of Defense bonuses isn't to keep Joe Commoner from wearing armor; lack of funds and an extremely low frequency of combat more involved than a bar fight will do that. The point is to keep Luke Skywalker or Rand al'Thor from looking like idiots for not wearing armor.