Question for the grognards: Why does D&D have dwarves/elves/hobbits etc.?

[Terath Ninir]

Probably because the fantasy miniatures games, such as the original Chainmail, we were playing (alongside other standard wargames) has them. The reason fantasy miniatures games had them was because they are standard races in fantasy literature and mythology, though they have been presented in countless different manners (from Tolkein to Dunsany to Anderson to many, many more).

Ah. That I did not know, having never played any wargame (other than Battle System, which I only sort of count).

Dungeon Delver -- I never found either of those books and forgot to look for them once internet bookselling came along. I'll have to give them a try.

So: we have the races existing in other wargames already, books that I am unfamiliar with, and marketing. Has anyone heard Gygax talk about this subject before? I'd be interested to hear his views...

 

[thedungeondelver]

Dungeon Delver -- I never found either of those books and forgot to look for them once internet bookselling came along. I'll have to give them a try.

Oh they are good. If I have any complaint about THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS it is that it's too short!

Trivia about THE BROKEN SWORD: Balin and Dwalin are mentioned in it! (...because Anderson draws from the same norse mythos that Tolkien did...!)

EDIT: I might also mention that the bard from Lloyd Alexander's THE CHRONICLES OF PRYDAIN so starkly resembles the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS bard that I can't help but think that there's some influence there.

 

[dcas]

Was it a marketing gimic?

At least as far as hobbi^H^H^H^H^H^H halflings are concerned, it was a marketing gimmick to attract readers of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings to the game.

But dwarves and elves are very prevalent in northern European mythology and folklore.

Gary has said that he took dwarves from Norse mythology -- the same place from which Professor Tolkien took them. I don't know where his elves might have come from -- they're not exactly 'Tolkienesque'.

 

[Mark CMG]

So: we have the races existing in other wargames already, books that I am unfamiliar with, and marketing. Has anyone heard Gygax talk about this subject before? I'd be interested to hear his views...

There's a book list at the end of the 1E DMG where Gygax touts (some of) those that influenced D&D for him, though he has often downplayed Tolkein's influence since then and it must be mentioned that Arneson and a good number of others had more than a little input, so their own influences may vary from those of Poppa G.

 

[Terath Ninir]

I will. I wanted to read all the books listened in the 1e DMG, but I couldn't find most of them when I was a kid. I finally found the Tritonian Ring a couple years back.

Thanks for the info, btw. I guess Gygax did more rebranding of ideas he already liked to make them look like Tolkien than I thought...

 

[thedungeondelver]

Gary has said that he took dwarves from Norse mythology -- the same place from which Professor Tolkien took them. I don't know where his elves might have come from -- they're not exactly 'Tolkienesque'.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd say Anderson. Or Dunsany.

 

[dcas]

I might also mention that the bard from Lloyd Alexander's THE CHRONICLES OF PRYDAIN so starkly resembles the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS bard that I can't help but think that there's some influence there.

Do you mean Fflewddur Fflam or one of the real bards?

 

[Nightfall]

Cause no one thought to make Slithern/Ratmen, Assaatthi, or even charduni.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Do you mean Fflewddur Fflam or one of the real bards?

Obviously the "real" bards although Fflewddur showed his mettle on more than one occasion.

 

[Garnfellow]

I think EGG has stated (in one of the Q&A threads?) that the inclusion of the Tolkien races was merely a marketing ploy. I don't think that's completely untrue, but I don't think it really gives Tolkien's influence proper credit, either.

In "Influence of J.R.R. Tolkien On the D&D and AD&D Games" in Dragon 95 Gary tried really hard to discount Tolkien's influence on the game, to the point of suggesting that European folklore and mythology were equally, if not more, important influences on the demihuman races. Frankly, and with due respect to Gary, I thought his argument was patently ridiculous.

I don't think if you're reading the Elder Eddas or whatever you are going to independently develop dwarves and elves that look so much like Tolkien's. And you sure as heck aren't going to independently invent hobbits, no matter how much folklore you read.

I have no doubt that EGG is not a fan of LotR, and I completely agree that weird fiction from the pulp magazines was much more important to his personal conception of the fantasy genre. And certainly other fantasy sources were also vitally important to making D&D "D&D." But Gary's personal tastes weren't the only input into the game. I don't think Arenson had such antipathy to LotR, and clearly Gary's players were tremendous fans of Tolkien (I believe Rob Kuntz is an avowed fanatic). Maybe it was their influence alone that brought the Tolkien races (and many other influences) into the game.

In any case, Tolkien was and continues to be tremendously important to D&D. I strongly suspect that if the Tolkien races weren't included in D&D at the beginning, the game never would have taken off. As it was, D&D had the good fortune to be born at a time when Tolkien style fantasy was really starting to bubble up all over popular culture -- and D&D was in the exact right place at the right time to really catch on.