Question: Grappling more than 1 target simultaneously

[Venator]

The following scenario has come up more than a few times recently and our group is looking for some clarifications:

A monster with multiple attacks coming from (presumably) different arms, pseudopods, or whatever is currently grappling one PC.

1) Can he begin to grapple another target if he successfully attacks them? How about a third, forth, fifth, ect.?

2) If so, what modifications to his various rolls would the monster take (attack roll and both new and existing grapple checks)?

3) If not, why not?

4) How would all of the above change if the monster had the Improved Grab feat?


Basically, we are having a hard time trying to decide what the bold part of the following means, and how it applies to creatures with and without the feat:

Improved Grab

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Is this saying that if a monster with the feat chooses to simply hold a target (and take a -20 to all grapple checks including the current one) it can attack normally, and start other grabs normally? What if it chooses to conduct the grapple normally and not take the -20? Can it grab or even attack anyone else? I would love it if you could link to, or post the page numbers of anything conclusive.

If it helps, the monsters in question were Mimics (2 pseudopods) and a Giant Octopus (8 arms).

 

[Infiniti2000]

1) Can he begin to grapple another target if he successfully attacks them? How about a third, forth, fifth, ect.?

No. Once grappling, you do not threaten anyone else and cannot attack them. Furthermore, he cannot take attacks with all of his natural weapons on his lone victim. However, note that with improved grab, the monster could initially grapple with a -20 penalty (or -10 with the feat from Draconomicon) and then continue with other attacks on other opponents or even the same opponent (in this last case, the monster is not grapple and the target is, but the target is not denied his Dex bonus vs. the monster, his grappler).

2) If so, what modifications to his various rolls would the monster take (attack roll and both new and existing grapple checks)?

If the monster took the -20 penalty, he would have no penalty to attack rolls versus any opponent. He would have a -20 penalty on opposed grapple checks vs. his one opponent, however (and could 'grapple' others with another -20 penalty, which is possible with, say, a glabrezu).

3) If not, why not?

Because when grappling you threaten no area and thus cannot make attacks against any opponent except the one(s) you grapple.

4) How would all of the above change if the monster had the Improved Grab feat?

As noted.

 

[kjenks]

...or even the same opponent

Actually, the wording of the Improved Grab ability only allows the grabber to make attacks with the remaining natural weapons on other opponents, not the same opponent (the grabbee).

 

[FCWesel]

No. Once grappling, you do not threaten anyone else and cannot attack them.

Are you sure about that? Afterall, (in general) Unarmed attackers don't Threaten, but they can attack (though not via a AoO, obviously). Does it say specifically that they can't attackk or that they don't Threaten, because it is an important distinction.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually, the wording of the Improved Grab ability only allows the grabber to make attacks with the remaining natural weapons on other opponents, not the same opponent (the grabbee).

Good point, I forget that wording sometimes. However, I think it's still arguable to allow anyone to be attacked based on the "still threatens an area" text and that the comment about other opponents is merely further clarification about the non-restriction due to not actually grappling. Good idea to bring it up, though.

Are you sure about that? Afterall, (in general) Unarmed attackers don't Threaten, but they can attack (though not via a AoO, obviously). Does it say specifically that they can't attackk or that they don't Threaten, because it is an important distinction.

Good question. The relevant quotes are:

No Threatened Squares
You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

threaten
To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. ...

grappling
Engaged in wrestling or some other form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. A grappling character can undertake only a limited number of actions. He does not threaten any squares, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against opponents he isn't grappling. For creatures, grappling can also mean trapping opponents in any number of ways (in a toothy maw, under a huge paw, and so on).

You're right that just not threatening is not reason enough. Provided under grappling is a list of the possible actions you may take. Attacking opponents you aren't grappling isn't one of them, so thus you cannot do it.

 

[Venator]

First; thank you so much for clearing this up for us. Your response was very clear and really went a long way to helping all of us understand what exactly goes on.

I do have a question though...

Furthermore, he cannot take attacks with all of his natural weapons on his lone victim.

Why is this? The PHB says something to the effect of... "While grappling a creature can use his natural attacks, or a light weapon, but not more than 1 light weapon"

Wouldn't the creatures additional attacks be considered natural attacks? If so, wouldn't he just take a -4 to his attack roll to hit his target due to being grappled?

Sorry for the confusion .

 

[Infiniti2000]

I do have a question though...

Why is this? The PHB says something to the effect of... "While grappling a creature can use his natural attacks, or a light weapon, but not more than 1 light weapon"

Wouldn't the creatures additional attacks be considered natural attacks? If so, wouldn't he just take a -4 to his attack roll to hit his target due to being grappled?

Because to make an attack while grappling, you use the Attack Your Opponent option. To attack more than once you use this rule: "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses."

And then when you look up natural weapons: "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

Furthermore, even the FAQ (pg. 71) agrees: "Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can attack with either a claw or its bite."