Question on a couple of feats from Compete Divine...

[Scharlata]

Each day you prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level.

But that is irrelevant when you have the Spontaneous Healer feat. You prepare just 1 of the acquired Cure spells per spell level. But then you are able to swap out your normally prepared [arcane/wizard] spells for a Cure spell of that or a lower level up to a number equal to your Wisdom bonus.

Kind regards

 

[Liquidsabre]

But that is irrelevant when you have the Spontaneous Healer feat.

Not at all. Spontaneous Healer allows you to cast a cure spell without preparation and the text refers to both preparation and spontaneous casting stating that there is a maximum of 1 spell/level.

 

[The Souljourner]

This would be true except for the feat's text:

"Each day you prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level."

Ahh, that wasn't spelled out clearly before. In that case, yes, I think you're right.

-The Souljourner

 

[Scharlata]

Not at all. Spontaneous Healer allows you to cast a cure spell without preparation and the text refers to both preparation and spontaneous casting stating that there is a maximum of 1 spell/level.

Hi, Liquisabre!

At all!

I think, I don't get your argument....

The description of Arcane Disciple mentions that you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of the newly acquired domain spells of each level.

The text that I'm reading in my CD has a parenthesis around "or cast, if...", meaning that this is a "relative clause" that does not exclude the application of Spontaneous Healer.

So far, so good.

In combination with the feat Spontaneous Healer you may as a wizard prepare just 1 spell slot with a Cure Light Wounds for your 1st-level spell list on each given day. If that spontaneous healing wizard is in need of more Cure spells of 1st level, he just swaps out a prepared Magic Missile for a Cure Light Wounds. And he does that up to 4 times more if he has a Wisdom score of 18. So our wizard could cast 1 Cure Light Wounds if he has only the Arcane Disciple feat and up to 4 Cure Light Wounds if he has the Spontaneous Healer feat and a Wisdom score of 18.

Kind regards

 

[RigaMortus]

That is how I read it too Scharlata.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Hi, Liquisabre!

At all!

I think, I don't get your argument....

Hi Scharlata, I must say it's very nice having a discussion with some one so polite! I'll try to make my argument clearer and we'll see if we cant' figure this out.

The description of Arcane Disciple mentions that you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of the newly acquired domain spells of each level.

The text that I'm reading in my CD has a parenthesis around "or cast, if...", meaning that this is a "realtive clause" that does not exclude the application of Spontaneous Healer.

Correct, the quote I used above does not exclude the use of the Spontaneous Healer feat but the Spontaneous Healer feat does not remove the restriction placed by the Arcane Disciple feat, as you mentioned, a maximum of one domain spell of each level may be cast or prepared.

In combination with the feat Spontaneous Healer you may as a wizard prepare just 1 spell slot with a Cure Light Wounds for your 1st-level spell list on each given day. If that spontaneous healing wizard is in need of more Cure spells of 1st level, he just swaps out a prepared Magic Missile for a Cure Light Wounds. And he does that up to 4 times more if he has a Wisdom score of 18. So our wizard could cast 1 Cure Light Wounds if he has only the Arcane Disciple feat and up to 4 Cure Light Wounds if he has the Spontaneous Healer feat and a Wisdom score of 18.

This is incorrect and may be where you are getting hung up. As I said, the Spontaneous Healer cannot remove the restriciton placed by the Arcane Disciple feat. So a 3rd level Wizard can either prepare one 1st level domain spell and one 2nd level domain spell. With a Wis 14 the Wizard can instead spontaneously cast these two domain spells, a much better prospect.

 

[The Souljourner]

Spontaneous Healer gives you the ability to cast healing spells without preparation, which invokes the "one spell cast per day" restriction imposed by Arcane Disciple.

-The Souljourner

 

[Scharlata]

Spontaneous Healer gives you the ability to cast healing spells without preparation, which invokes the "one spell cast per day" restriction imposed by Arcane Disciple.

Hi!

Nope!

You wouldn't call a core class cleric a Spontaneous Caster who does not have to prepare his spells (as, for example, a favored soul) just because he uses his Spontaneous Casting ability described in the PHB, would you?

At least, I understand, where we hung up.

OK, I don't withdraw my point of view, but I can now understand why you insisted.

Returning the compliment @ Liquisabre with kind regards

 

[Pax]

Guys, the thing is - there's no explicit statement either way.

No, Spontaneous Healer doesn't have a line that says "this ability can be used despite the restrictions in Arcane Disciple" - but then,how many feats DO reference limitations in other feats, that way?

None, that I can think of right now.

But, let's really look at the sentence in question, shall we? It says:
[bq] Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells withoutpreparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.[/bq]

So. What is this actually saying to us ... ?

One, if you prepare spells each day, you may only prepare one spell of each spell level, per day, from the domain(s) you have gained access to.

Two, if you cast spells without preparation, you may only cast one spell of each spell level, per day, from the domain(s) you have gained access to.

That's all well and fine - using Arcane Disciple, you may only cast/prepare one spell of each spell level form the domain selected. No problems there, right?

Now, enter Spontaneous Healer. As a seperate ability, you can exchange a prepared spell in order to spontaneous cure wounds spell, a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier - regardless of spell level.

Well; absent an explicit statement to the contrary, we should look at the impact of allowing full interaction between these two feats in terms of game balance.

So. In the event that a Wizard has a wisdom of, say, 14 or 16, and both the Arcane Disciple and Spontaneous Healer feats ... is it really that unbalanced to allow her to convert prepared spells into 2 or 3 additional cure spells per day?

If our wizard is 17th+ level, the'yre getting nine curative spells per day. Is three more that big a deal? Really?

I just don't think so; I don't see the problem with permittingit, and IMO, it's a very creative, party-supportive use of two feats.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Grrrr, losing an hours worth of posting bites! The same happened with my last post, which was MUCH more indepth. I'm not complaining mind you! (I am )

You wouldn't call a core class cleric a Spontaneous Caster who does not have to prepare his spells (as, for example, a favored soul) just because he uses his Spontaneous Casting ability described in the PHB, would you?

As far as casting cure spells, yes. Clerics cast cure spells spontaneously, doesn't matter what you call them, in fact the Arcane Disciple feat makes no distinction between caster-types only how the spells are cast, so the only relevant part is HOW the spells are cast.

OK, I don't withdraw my point of view, but I can now understand why you insisted.

Returning the compliment @ Liquisabre with kind regards

If there was an award for most polite poster who disagreed, you just earned it my friend!


As I was saying above, the Spontaneous Healer feat has no affect and does not have anything to do with the Arcane Disciple feat (other than allowing a character to qualify for taking SH). One does not change or alter the other. AD allows limited access to domain spells (healing domain in this case) and SH allows the spontaneous casting of cure spells a number of times per day, that's it. SH does not allow GREATER access to those domain spells, but simply allows the spontaneous casting of said spells. I don't think there's any real way around it gents.

It’s like saying the feat Quicken Turning allows the use of Divine Vigor as a free action. Just because QT allows a character to turn-rebuke undead as a free action doesn’t alter or remove the DV text: “As a standard action, spend one of your turn-rebuke attempts..."