Question on a couple of feats from Compete Divine...

[Piratecat]

I shouldn't have responded in kind, especially when I know my points are so strong without doing so;

This is akin to saying "nyah nyah! I got in the last word, let me tell you again how I'm right!" It's not impressive. While apologies are usually appreciated, if you're tempted to use one to advance your own agenda then it's best to let the whole subject drop and move on.

So let's do that, please.

 

[Pax]

While apologies are usually appreciated, if you're tempted to use one to advance your own agenda then it's best to let the whole subject drop and move on.

:\ Which is not even close to what I was "trying" to do - not even on the same continent, so to speak. :\

My only motive was to apologise without weakening my position in the debate, in the hopes that maybe it could return to being a debate, rather than becoming a mutual insult-fest (which you'd only shut down faster than the speed of thought, of course).

So, please .... don't ascribe motives to me, unless you can truly prove them to have been the case. And I tend to think that'd either require (a) a far longer exchange of unpleasantries than occurred here, or (b) irrefutable scientific proof of the existance of actual, god's-honest-truth real telepathy.

 

[Piratecat]

(b) irrefutable scientific proof of the existance of actual, god's-honest-truth real telepathy.

Oh, I can read minds. Let's scan some thoughts out there. . . why, yes, I *DO* have a nice butt! Thanks for noticing, everyone! Boy, that one was easy to pick up.

Seriously, my apologies if I misinterpreted your statement, Sean; I can only go by how it sounds to me. I know from experience that it's easy to misinterpret text without the normal vocal intonation, facial expressions, etc; I'm sure that's what happened here.

If you want to continue this discussion please feel free to drop me an email instead of discussing it in this thread. Back to the topic!

 

[Pax]

If you want to continue this discussion please feel free to drop me an email instead of discussing it in this thread. Back to the topic!

Nah, no need; misunderstanding averted/corrected/cleared up. ^_^

Though, regardless - I don't have a clue as to your email address, and the last time I tried to use the "contact a moderator" function (or whatever it's called, I forget now) ... the BB gave me a "this feature has been disabled" message.

Oh, and, if you really CAN read minds ... how much would you charge per hour, to sit just behind me at a high-stakes poker table in Vegas, and slip me covert intel on my opponents' hands?

 

[Piratecat]

All moderator email addresses are listed in a sticky thread in Meta.

 

[Cugel]

Let me apologize in advance for not quoting all of the relevant arguments. I will, instead, quote the original post:

I was going to write out the feats, but I don't think they are OGL. So I'll just name the feats and paraphrase. How does the Arcane Disciple feat and Spontaneuous Healer feat work together, if one chooses the Healing Domain (for Arcane Disciple).

Arcane Disciple allows you to pick a Cleric domain (as an arcane caster, such as a Wizard) and allows you to memorize a spell from that Domain. The catch is, you can only prepare a maximum of one of the domain spells per level. So, assuming you were a 3rd level Wizard, you could memorize Cure Light and Cure Moderate Wounds once each.

Now we apply the Spontaneous Healer feat which allows you to use your spell casting ability to spontaneously cast cure spells (from your class spell list) just as a Cleric can. You can do this a total number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier.

So since Cure spells are now on your class list (thanks to Arcane Disciple: Healing Domain), can you basically drop a Wizard spell you prepared and cast a Cure spell instead?

I believe the sticking point here for Liquidsabre is the fact that Arcane Disciple specifies that if you cast without preparation, you can only cast one Domain spell per day per level, which he feels restricts the use of Spontaneous Healer. I believe he's wrong, and here's why:

Spontaneous casting is NOT the same thing as casting without preparation. Spontaneous casting requires the sacrifice of a previously prepared spell of equal level. Therefore, Spontaneous casting requires preparation (you have to prepare a spell to spontaneously cast another in its place). So, if a wizard with Arcane Disciple chooses the Healing domain to add the Cure spells to his spell list, the Spontaneous Healer feat will allow him to spontaneously cast Cure spells equal to his Wisdom modifier per day, as well as cast the one per spell level he's allowed from Arcane Disciple. I think we can assume that it would work the same for sorcerers or bards, in that they would give up an unused spell slot instead of a prepared spell, but I don't know what the rules precedents are for spontaneous casting done by classes that don't prepare their spells in advance.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I believe I'd agree with Cugel.

To add a couple of points, consider a cleric for a second?

A cleric 'prepares' spells per day, including one spell from his domain.

A cleric can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into a 'cure' or 'inflict' spell ... including his domain spell, if necessary.

Consider the cleric of boccob with the magic domain - he can actually convert an invisibility spell to a cure/inflict...

Now, looking at the feats in question, consider:

A wizard takes SH - but has no 'cure' spells on his list, yet
A bard takes SH - and does, and thus converts any empty spell slot to 'cure'

A wizard takes AD - adding a domain (heal) to his spell repetoire. He can now prepare a 'cure' spell as his 1 domain spell per day... just like the cleric with the domain (heal) could.

The feat AD also adds those spells to the wizard/sorceror/bard class spell list (says so, right there in the feat).

That's more than the Cleric got from the domain - but the cleric got it as a class ability, the wizard is getting it as a feat. The magic domain spells are not 'added' to the class spell list for a cleric taking it... they are only domain spells.

In the case of the arcane caster taking AD - those spells ARE added to the class spell list. So a wizard could choose to prepare them (albeit only if his WIS is high enough) in place of normal aracane spells as well as memorizing the extra domain spell (another cure)- right? I think we all agree on this effect of AD, given the quote ""Each day you prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level."

Here I'm wishing we had the full quote (tried to find it in thread, but it's not posted - wise of y'all), because that still has some interpretation behind it. However, it specifically states 'these domain spells'... however, AD also add those domain spells to the class list... No different than a cleric taking the heal domain - the cleric can only prepare a maximum of one domain spell per level... but can prepare the same spell from his class spell list...

If you were to take the intrepretation that that the addition of the spells to the spell list doesn't allow that effect... then I'd have to ask...

As a Bard, if I were to take AD (healing) and gain 'CLW' as a Domain spell... Since AD says I can only cast ONE of these domain spells per day, does that mean I can't cast the CLW I already knew after casting it as a domain spell?

If you don't take that debatable intrepretation - if you accept that adding the spells to the spell list means you can prepare them as normal spells as well as a domain spell, then a wizard with SH/AD becomes nearly as good a healer as the cleric - with a completely different spell selection - so long as you are only looking at the 'Cure' Spells... an inefficient methodology, in my opinion. Consider the clerics access to the vigor variants, amongst others, and you should see why it's inefficient to me - Cures are for emergencies - life/death situations that demand healing immediately.

As for the MT vs W w/ AD and SH - what's the goal of the character? If you want to become the most efficient healer possible, then I'd think that a MT with Divine Vigor, Arcane Disciple (Heal), Spontaneous Healer, and Practiced Spellcaster x2 would be the true healing tank - regardless of the interpretation used above...

Just my two cents I'll leave now and apply some balm to the singed areas the flames hit

 

[Hypersmurf]

A cleric 'prepares' spells per day, including one spell from his domain.

A cleric can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into a 'cure' or 'inflict' spell ... including his domain spell, if necessary.

Consider the cleric of boccob with the magic domain - he can actually convert an invisibility spell to a cure/inflict...

Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

In the case of the arcane caster taking AD - those spells ARE added to the class spell list. So a wizard could choose to prepare them (albeit only if his WIS is high enough) in place of normal aracane spells as well as memorizing the extra domain spell (another cure)- right? I think we all agree on this effect of AD, given the quote ""Each day you prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level."

Hmm? I don't think Arcane Disciple grants extra spell slots.
It allows you to prepare a maximum of one at each level in the slots you already have as a caster.

-Hyp.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

Good point - they can't use the domain spell.

But they could lose any other spell to cast an equal level or less cure spell on their list (OT query: whyever would you case 'less' level ???) - provided the cure spell is on their list... A Bard who took SH could lose any spell to suddenly cast CLW, right?

Hmm? I don't think Arcane Disciple grants extra spell slots.
It allows you to prepare a maximum of one at each level in the slots you already have as a caster.

-Hyp.

Ummm granted I don't have the text in front of me, but if you're saying Arcane Disciple doesn't actually grant domain style spells, but instead merely adds them to the class list - then you'd be right, you can only prepare/cast one from each level/per day regardless of whether or not you prepared it or spontaneously cast it.

I thought it allowed the extra spell slot and dedicated it to the domain spells - much like a clerical domain, in which case I'd be right.

Can anyone clarify that or do I have to dig up the feat to read it ?