Question on jumping

[waxtransient]

In my session last night my level 6 Warden wanted to jump and grab an enemy that was hovering 4 squares above the square next to him. I told him that even though he had a high athletics, reaching that enemy with a standing jump would probably be nearly impossible.

My group then pointed out that if he needed to run two squares to make the jump a running jump, he should just run in a circle until he got back to his spot and then make his running jump.

I protested, saying that if characters were able to do that, then the only time a character would be forced to make a standing jump would be if they were somehow in a narrow, 1 square shaft. I told them their interpretation felt too gamey.

However, my entire group insisted, so I capitulated.

I don't really know any other 4e DM's, so my questions are these: per the RAW, can a PC even do the circle run thing to make a running jump in virtually all circumstances, and if this is technically legal per the RAW, does it feel gamey to anybody else, or am I just being a stick in the mud?

Thanks!

 

[Riastlin]

Technically, per RAW, I believe your players are correct. I don't recall there being anything about requiring the character to run in a straight line, etc. Ordinarily, the limiting factor to this would be that there may well be other monsters in the area that would get OA's against a character trying to run in circles.

That being said, I don't necessarily have a problem with a DM stepping in to say "Uh guys, I realize per RAW you may be right, but c'mon man!" Be careful though to make sure that you have good logic to back this up, that you apply this universally (i.e. to monsters too) and that there isn't some alternative explanation available.

For instance, I had this come up in a game I was running. The paladin wanted to try to jump across a chasm, but to do so, he'd have to run parallel to it along its edge, then jump sideways because the cavern wall would be in his way. I ruled that he could do it and that what he was actually doing was running along the wall in a parkour or "free running" fashion. So yeah, always try to look for ways to make it work, but if there is no logical explanation then you can invoke Rule 0 if need be.

One question though, what prevented the warden from simply backing up two squares then running forward to jump?

 

[waxtransient]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. My players also suggested what you did as well, to just have back up two squares and then jump.

Sometimes it's good to have a third party confirm I was being a curmudgeon. Thanks again!

 

[Grydan]

Note that even with a running start, the Athletics DC to reach a foe 20 to 25 feet up (4 squares = 20 feet, square adjacent to him is 5 feet on its own, so 25 feet, right?) is rather high.

Let's assume a strong case for the warden. Training in Athletics, a 20 or 21 Strength, and a +2 bonus to Athletics from race or background. That's a +15 Athletics check.

The Warden rolls a 20. Result is 35. Divide by 5 for a running start. The Paladin jumps... 7 feet. Add his height + 1/3rd rounded down, and if he's 6 feet tall he can grab something that's 15 feet up. He's ten feet short of the mark.

Unless he's got a bunch more bonuses to Athletics, and/or is unusually tall, the leap isn't going to do him much good.

That out of the way, no, there's nothing that prevents a character (other than terrain, lack of available movement, special conditions that don't apply in general, or DM fiat) from backing up, then moving forward, to get their running start.

 

[S'mon]

For instance, I had this come up in a game I was running. The paladin wanted to try to jump across a chasm, but to do so, he'd have to run parallel to it along its edge, then jump sideways because the cavern wall would be in his way. I ruled that he could do it and that what he was actually doing was running along the wall in a parkour or "free running" fashion. So yeah, always try to look for ways to make it work, but if there is no logical explanation then you can invoke Rule 0 if need be.

Better IMO to ask the player to come up with a reasonable explanation for how running round in circles helps his longjump, and if he can't...

In your Paladin example, I'd let the player *suggest* that, but then rub my hands and say:

"OK then, so we're looking at an Acrobatics check..."

Probably DC 20, since it doesn't sound like something doable by the average untrained person, but well within the competence of Epic PCs. Of course if the PC has a Climb speed (eg from a utility power) then they'd automatically succeed on the Acrobatics check and get to make the Athletics roll normally.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Nothing specifically in the rules prohibits running in a circle, or even back and forth, and for a high jump I'm not sure I would argue that much. For a long jump, I'd argue it has to be roughly in the same direction. Two additional comments, though:

1. Grydan, I think your calculations are a little off, but for a slightly different reason. To attack someone you need to be in an adjacent square. From a 3D "voxel" perspective, down 1 and to the side is okay, so the PC merely needs to clear 15ft (3 squares) with his feet (else he's not in the square). This requires a check DC (with "running") of 75. At what height of clearing does the PC count to be in the adjacent square? Note that a grab is an attack and therefore there are restrictions on where you can attack from. Thinking horizontally, you can't "lunge" from two squares away, so I don't think this should be allowed vertically either. Alternatively, you just need to figure how much above 20ft is necessary for a grab attack. Is 1ft enough? Therefore, 21ft-10ft (height+reach) = 11ft, and therefore the check DC is a measly 55. I wouldn't say that reaching exactly 20ft is sufficient.
2. A quirk in the rules strongly favors not recording your height, especially for small PCs. It's absolutely ridiculous, but there it is. If you don't record your height, small and medium creatures simply use 10ft for the combination of height + reach. This would imply that all small and medium creatures are about 7.5ft tall.

 

[Riastlin]

To be honest, I don't recall who came up with the wall running explanation but it sounded cool, and certainly followed the "Rule of Cool" so I was fine with the explanation.

You do make a good point though about asking the players to come up with an explanation. This is good if for no other reason than to encourage players to think outside the box rather than just "athletics". I'm not sure though I mind providing the explanation if it seems obvious to me, but in those cases, I will make sure I tell the players what that explanation is so that they understand the ruling.

As for Athletics vs. Acrobatics, I think this is one of the areas where those two skills overlap and I could certainly see an argument for either skill.

 

[Klaus]

In my session last night my level 6 Warden wanted to jump and grab an enemy that was hovering 4 squares above the square next to him. I told him that even though he had a high athletics, reaching that enemy with a standing jump would probably be nearly impossible.

My group then pointed out that if he needed to run two squares to make the jump a running jump, he should just run in a circle until he got back to his spot and then make his running jump.

I protested, saying that if characters were able to do that, then the only time a character would be forced to make a standing jump would be if they were somehow in a narrow, 1 square shaft. I told them their interpretation felt too gamey.

However, my entire group insisted, so I capitulated.

I don't really know any other 4e DM's, so my questions are these: per the RAW, can a PC even do the circle run thing to make a running jump in virtually all circumstances, and if this is technically legal per the RAW, does it feel gamey to anybody else, or am I just being a stick in the mud?

Thanks!

So the villain's feet were 20 feet above the ground (meaning there were 4 squares of empty air beneath him)? If so, a 6-foot-tall character (who has an 8-foot reach) needs to leap 12 feet into the air. With a running start, that means the DC is 12 x 5, or a whopping 60!

If the villain were 15 feet above the ground, then the character would need to beat a DC of 35 to add 7 feet to his vertical reach.

If the PC is a 7-foot-tall goliath, his vertical reach is 10 feet. with a running start, he needs ro beat DC 50 to add another 10 feet to his reach, but only 25 to reach a villain 15 feet above the ground.

Now, to the "running in circles": it's hard enough to jump, so I'd allow it. If there are adjacent walls, there's the parkour style of running up the wall (but in this case I'd ask for some Acrobatics as well). If not, the character can spend one square moving back, then two squares forward (and into the villain's square) to jump.

 

[Kerranin]

I think the reach rules are sufficiently hard that we really don't need to create additional hurdles.

For anyone saying we'd have to reach more than 20ft, you need to remember that the reach being talked of is unarmed, there is the length of the weapon for the purposes of attacking into the square.

Alternatively you could get a thrown weapon?

 

[filthgrinder]

Umm, why wouldn't you just pull your net out of your Deep Pocket's cloak? I mean, everyone has one of those right? Filled with all sorts of odds and ends?

*smirk*

That much of a vertical leap, in armor, is pretty impressive, even with a high Athletics.

In my games, I'd let them do it. I had my party fight a dragon in the bottom of a chasm they climbed down, the dragon attacked while they were still on the ledge. On character drew out his length of rope, and wanted to jump from the ledge, to the dragon's back, and lasso it (attempting to ride it). I let him make an atheltics check for the jump and then make a grapple attack. He did it. On the dragon's turn, the dragon shook him off, but I let the lasso stay attached. This came to be important later, as the party was on the ground, and the dragon flew over them. Our goliath barbarian remembered the rope, and then jumped up, grabbed the rope and yanked. Her she made the jump and then crit on the athletics check to pull, so I ruled that she yanked the dragon out of the air, pulling it down, and then knocking it prone on top of her. I had her make a saving throw to avoid being hit by the falling dragon, she failed, so I had them both take the dragon's falling damage.

It's probably not RAW, but it was a fun and cool moment. Everyone will remember that part, and no one will remember that the swordmage hit with frostwind blade later to finally slay the dragon.