How is it that Crack of Doom and Rapid Shot stack? Doesn't Rapid Shot require a full round action? What's the wording for Crack of Doom? It seems to me like they shouldn't stack just like flurry of blows doesn't stack with the S&F feat that lets monks get 3 unarmed attacks (lightening fists?). Can someone quote Crack of Doom from S&F?
Question regarding Lasher PrC
- Thread starter Acmite
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Acmite
First Post
Sigma said:
Rapid shot applies to all ranged attacks (providing the weapon can be used multiple times in a round). A whip is considered a projectile weapon. Your analogy doesn't really work since you are comparing melee atacks to ranged attacks using a feat that only applies to ranged attacks.
The closest example would be a fighter with improved unarmed strike using the TWF and Ambi feats to get an additional attack (at lessened penalties).
Monks have no "off-hand" attacks. All their attacks are considered to be with a primary "hand", since they use all parts of their body to attack (Scottish head-butting and groin kicking to flying albow attacks and drop-kicks).
In order to get multiple attacks in a round, a character must use a Full Attack. Therefore in order to use Crack of Fate/Doom, they must use a FAA. Since the requirements for Rapid Shot and CoF/D are the same and there are no prohibitions against them stacking, they can both be used...but the penalties are cumulative.
Acmite said:
I don't see how they are that different. Flury of Blows allows you to get an extra melee attack if you use the full attack action, receiving a -2 penalty for the lot of them. Rapid Shot allows you to get an extra ranged attack if you use the full attack action, receiving a -2 penalty for the lot of them. Granted, Flury of Blows works because it's basically allowing the monk to act as if he has TWF and Ambidex for his fists, and Rapid Shot isn't providing the extra attacks in the same manner, but mechanically they are the same. Lightening fists allows the monk to make 3 attacks as a full attack action, thus it does not stack w/flury of blows. Crack of Doom allows the Lasher to make 2 attacks with a full attack action, thus it should not stack with Rapid Shot.
I would need to see the exact text of the Crack of Fate/Doom to really comment. My gut reaction was to say that they don't stack because they're both full attack actions. However, upon rereading Rapid Shot, I see that it is triggered by a full attack action, and does not replace that action like Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack does. That makes me belive that if Crack of Fate/Doom is worded similarly (occurs when a full attack action is executed) that they might stack after all.
Ultimately, I think a lot of my doubt comes from the sheer crumminess of S&F. I think that Crack of Fate/Doom were meant to be limited versions of Rapid Shot that could only be used with whips. I don't think it's clear that they do (or don't), and without an official clairifcation, I'd rather err on the side of caution.
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Acmite
First Post
Sigma said:
I disagree about the intent of Crack of Doom/Fate......but I know that if I doubted the way it works, I'd err on the side of caution as well.
They are very clear on the nature of whips (projectile weapons), and they are very clear as to when Rapid Shot works (FAA with a ranged/projectile weapon), so to me it's pretty clear that they should stack. But, YMMV.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
melkoriii said:
Not exactly a common tactic. Most of the time you are either better at ranged attack or at melee. I guess it could happen if you have a much better dexterity than strenght and a pair of powerful daggers that you don't want to throw (which would beg the question of why you don't have Finesse). Even then you'd be wasting your best attacks with the weak daggers and keeping your weakest attack for your powerful ones.
*shrug*
Oh well, for the sake of the argument let's say it's a viable tactic;
I'd argue that you can only gain one extra attack.
Let's say you attack at a BAB of +10/+5, rapid shot or TWF could grant you +8/+8/+3. If you attack Twice with thrown dagger at +8 and move 5 feet there's only one attack at +3 left. If you had improved TWF I guess you could do one more attack at +3. Of course the melee attacks are modified by your strenght instead of your dex, which really begs once more the question of WHY? Use your best modifier and stick with it for pete's sake!
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Designer would have to clarify this point for us, but IMO crack of fate shouldn't stack with rapid shot.
I don't understand why so many of you are quick to dismiss the monk analogy; it's really good.
3e as a rule of thumb doesn't like stacking.
A monk using 2 nunchakus couldn't use TWF to gain an additional extra attack over that which is granted by flurry of blow.
Based on this, I think it stands to reason that a lasher isn't meant to use both rapid shot and crack of fate together.
I think you should simply see this as an opportunity to spend your feats elsewhere.
I don't understand why so many of you are quick to dismiss the monk analogy; it's really good.
3e as a rule of thumb doesn't like stacking.
A monk using 2 nunchakus couldn't use TWF to gain an additional extra attack over that which is granted by flurry of blow.
Based on this, I think it stands to reason that a lasher isn't meant to use both rapid shot and crack of fate together.
I think you should simply see this as an opportunity to spend your feats elsewhere.
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Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Sigma said:
One significant difference is that with flurry of blows you get your full strength bonus on all attacks, with rapid shot you get your full strength bonus on all attacks, but with TWF & Amb you only get half your strength bonus on the off-hand attack.
Doesn't help the original question, but I thought it might be helpful to mention that.
Cheers
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