Questionable morals - PC's killing children

Harlock said:
Neutral, well, I don't think murder is a neutral issue unless you cannot or do not know right from wrong. Neutral should not be an excuse to kill what you do not know is not innocent.

You can see this act as a desire to protect yourself and the lives of those whom you care about.

You can't say that the hobgoblins are going to grow up to become ruthless warriors; but you can't say they won't, either. Better safe than sorry, I say, when it comes to my life and the lives of those I care about.
 

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reapersaurus said:
Why necessarily would humanoids who didn't act evil - that's why they were spared in the first place - be assured in turning evil?
If the adventurers do something more than just let them fend for themselves, maybe they could do something to change that outcome.
Something akin to, but not limited to "We've spared your lives because you look to not be aggressive and of criminal intent the way the other humanoids were -
Go and continue to do so, and your lives will not meet a grim end, as the evidence before your very eyes I'm sure has taught you well..."

There probably isn't much any party could do to change the minds of the hobgoblins. They will feel great anger towards those who killed thier parents, right before thier eyes. And rightfully so. You don't know if they are going to be able to get over it without resorting to violence or hatred, but I wouldn't bet on them getting together with the local hobgoblin shrink to talk about thier feelings in group therapy. ;)

Maybe you could use some mind-bending magics to make sure they act good... another moral issue all in itself. ;)
 

Tewligan said:
What the...how the hell did this get by without an "Ewww" from anyone? Ahh, if there's one thing that adventurers are known for, it's selling children to pedophiles.

Maybe they agree with me. :)
 

SHARK said:
However, I'm wondering though--In campaigns where it is decidedly happy, High Fantasy, if the evil Humanoids aren't really evil, wicked, and nasty, isn't that, itself, less "High Fantasy" and more "Gritty Fantasy?" I mean that in High Fantasy, there are clearer distinctions, and less morally ambiguous situations; Whereas in the Gritty Fantasy, morally sticky situations where no matter what you do, some get screwed, some win big, and no matter where you stand, there is a less than pleasant taste in your mouth. It is the Gritty Fantasy that you have creatures that are morally mixed, with lots of angst, shifting emotions and beliefs, and characters who are potentially great blends of good and evil, with clear distinctions either impossible or difficult to achieve, even under the best of circumstances.

That's what I was thinking. A gritty, realistic campaign is all shades of gray, not Good and Evil, with a little bit between the two. A gritty, realistic campaign doesn't have objective, easily determinable morality. The "good" humans will hire a company of hobgoblin mercenaries, and then betray them to save money, leaving the "evil" hobgoblins, who kept their word 'til the bitter end, to struggle to survive.

For a fictional example, the people of the Black Company are, relatively speaking, pretty clearly the "good guys" of their setting -- even when they're working for the Evil Empire, they still come off better than the "heroic rebels" they're fighting. But the last Free Company of Khatovar isn't particularly "good" -- they murder, steal, assassinate, pillage, and more. Their opponents are just generally even worse. Except when they aren't -- like Lady, who seemed pretty darned wicked, yet her empire actually seems to eventually end up like a decent place to live for most people, and she herself turns out to have had motivations that were far more complicated than "she's evil".

But that's just me. "Realistic" and "gritty" means, to me, "like the real world", where things are more complicated than D&D, and no one can detect evil.
 

A gritty, realistic campaign is all shades of gray, not Good and Evil, with a little bit between the two. A gritty, realistic campaign doesn't have objective, easily determinable morality.
I disagree that a lack of magic or focus upon grim themes necessarily reflects very much on campaign morality in terms of shades of grey vs. black and white. I think that it is indeed stereotypical to associate "high fantasy" with a lack of sophistication - perhaps because gamer groupthink associates "high fantasy" with "happy little fairytales, monte haul and munchkins", and "happy little fairytales, monte haul and munchkins" with "simplistic, depthless gameplay" - stereotypical; yes. Necessarily accurate; no.

They are seperate style considerations; it is somewhat unfair to suggest that "high fantasy" implies simplistic, kiddie morality, unless you wish to denigrade it whilst tooting the "grim n gritty" style's horn, IMO.
But that's just me. "Realistic" and "gritty" means, to me, "like the real world", where things are more complicated than D&D, and no one can detect evil.
I think this has more to do with what you assume non-"grim n gritty" style gameplay is not, rather than what "grim n gritty" style gameplay necessarily is.
 
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sword-dancer said:
After seein SWII today and the description of Anakin after annihilating the Tusken including the children I could only say one word.

Childslayer

Spoilers? Not everyone who plans to see the movie has.
 


My take

I have read every post in this thread (just finished in fact). Frankly I think most of you (which means between 51% and 99%) are missing the real crux of the matter.

In a game setting where there are spells that can determine if a creature is evil or good, and certain spells directly and dramatically affect creatures based on whether they are evil or good (or lawful, or chaotic), there is much less moral ambiguity. Let's say the party was far more powerful than it seemed in your specific example (stay with me here), and the 14th level Cleric of Billybob (a non-existent LG Halfling deity) cast Holy Word, the effect of which is to kill non-good creatures of less than 4 HD (assuming Hobgoblin young had less than 4 HD). Do the "Children" die? If so, then they were not good, whether they were wimpering in a corner or not. Evil is often cowardly. Just because a creature realizes it can't defeat it's enemies and chooses to play on it's enemies mercy does not mean it is not evil, it just means it knows it can't win by force. Maybe it is just scared and confused, so what? Grimer Wormtongue is all wimpering and cowering when confronted by armed warriors, but what happened to the one helpless Hobbit he had under his power?

What defines Good Characters and Evil Characters in a fantasy setting is more their goals than their specific actions. Hobgoblins' goals are to compete with and defeat the 'Good' people of the world. Their Gods are evil (as evidenced by access to the Evil Cleric Domain) and the culture of D&D is NOT 21st Century Earth. One of the most fun parts of D&D is that there are Black and White absolutes. You can slaughter Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Dark Elves, Mimes, Fire Giants, Dragons, and undead. The occasional exception to the rule can be fun (a goblin who sees the PC's slaughter a bunch of Ogres that he had been a slave to becomes the Human Bard's 'Valet'). However, the main thrust of the game should be in crafting tales that are generally heroic and in keeping with the fantasy cultures.

Corellon Larethian has no problem with the wholesale slaughter of Dark Elves, Garl Glittergold is all for using powerful evocation magic on Kobold communities, In My own Twin Crowns campaign Casting Storm of Vengeance on the village of a community of Amphites is not only Ok, it is commendable. The goals of evil species are the eradication of the good species. As James Kirk pointed out when told that there was no differnce between the methodologies of good and evil, the difference is what they fight for, not always in how they fight. I'm not saying that specific actions are irrelevant, they are indications of a character's pursuit of their goals. The LG Paladin cannot trample down helpless old women for no reason and keep his alignment. He can stoically see an old woman put to death by a villain rather than reveal the secret entrance to the King's Keep (Of course he should make a heroic attempt to save her if he can).

In D&D Good vs Evil is not subjective, it is objective. There are clearly defined lines of Good and Evil, as a DM it is up to you to communicate what those lines are to your players. While it may be fun to occasionally blur the lines, doing this too often leads to a campaign where the PC's can be paralyzed into inactivity. "We freed the humans only to discover they were the bad guys? The Bugbear was really a LG priest Polymorphed into a Bugbear? Gosh we thought he was lying!" These are interesting twists but if all they ever see are 'interesting twists' then what are they to measure them by? The majority of enemies the PC's face should be the kind they can easily determine how to react to, that's what makes unusual situations interesting and ... well... unusual.

Finally to address the specific example, killing the hobgoblins was not evil. They are an evil race and they will get bigger and come back and kill other good people, it's what they do, it's what their culture and their Gods demand. If someone wants to make an argument that it wasn't good either, that I can accept, but to say it's evil because they are little is ridiculous. A young dragon is still a dragon, a little beholder is still a beholder, etc.... etc.... The Chaos Elf's character does not have access to the Monster Manual, if all his character knows about Hobgoblins is that they are evil and should be detroyed then he has not commiteed an evil act, if he discovers later that they were in fact a family of halflings with an illusion cast on them to look and act like Hobgoblins then he can feel badly about it and go looking for the cruel SOB who set that up, but that's about as far as it need s to go for someone playing a Chaos Elf...Killing the Druid was extreme and I think an evil act. Beating the druid taking his stuff and driving him away from the group would be much more justifiable in light of his inaction, demanding a better explanation would have been acceptable, assigning someone else lookout duty so the druid could prove he wasn't some sort of coward tag along, also acceptable. Unilaterly killing a party member? Evil baby, definitely evil. Does that act alone make the character evil? No, but it does indicate just how chaotic he is, and the rest of the group should not only take notice but be very wary of him from then on. It wouldn't take a lot of prompting at that point for me to have a few secret conversations wit other party members on what contingencies we should lay down in case Mr Chaos Elf starts looking at the any of the rest of us in a funny way...



"Mine is the last living voice you will ever hear, God has sent me."
-Susan Ivanova
 
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Larry Fitz wrote: They are an evil race
As of 2E or 1E, you would have been right on this point, but not any more - and your argument hinges on it a bit.

They're "Usually Lawful Evil" which means over 50% of the race will be evil. I'm pretty sure some good characters would be unable to justify the risk of killing a single hobgoblin baby of good alignment, even though his brothers and sisters were going to turn out evil. Others would be outright unable to bring themselves to kill sentient innocents (which children pretty much are by default), regardless of what they might turn out to be and do.

Odds are that the party possibly cut down some adult hobgoblins who were good or neutral in alignment in their attack on the lair - this is different moral territory to the children because they were probably opposing the PCs, and therefore a threat that needed to be dealt with. The children are not an immediate threat, but possibly may be some time down the line - so different moral rules apply. This may seem to be splitting hairs, but there's all the moral difference in the world between "immediate, definite threat" and "possibly a threat sometime in the future".

Being "good" means that you have to make decisions on whether an individual's rights are outweighed by the "common good", or vice versa. That's one of the choices which some good characters will find easy, and others will find hard, and that's the essence of a moral dilemma. In this case, the "common good" is to kill the hobgoblins in case they become evil murderers as adults. The principles of good alignment in opposition to this are an individual's rights, such as an innocent's right to live, and the possibility that not all of the hobgoblin children will turn out as predicted.

Under such circumstances, I can envision good aligned characters who would justifiably have killed the children, or let them go - and as a DM I would err on the side of the former resolution being the more questionable. However, I think that few good alignment characters who truly deserve the title would escape with a clear conscience, no matter what side of the decision they fell on.
 
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