Questionable morals - PC's killing children

[hong]

So, combined with the "Happy birthday PC" thread, I saw this one and thought that PirateCat had questionable morals because he was killing children.

Where do I sign up?

PS. Eternalknight, the contrast and brightness on your screen must be broken, because your posts are coming out all dim and murky. Please fix!

 

[Numion]

I think that people are viewing this from 20th century point of view. But D&D isn't 20th century. D&D is modeled after pseudo-medieval society. As such, pseudo-medieval morals should be applied too.

If we think with the medieval mind-set killing monster children could be considered non-evil act. Thats what I'd rule at least.

 

[Harlock]

The fact that the CN elf attacked and killed hobgoblin children isn't the real issue as I see it. If said elf has in character reasons for hating hobgoblins then attacking them is in character. What bothered me is that the hobgoblin children were wimpering and cowering in the corner. Using Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil as a guide you could refuse to award XP for the children since they were not a challenge. additionally killing non-combatants wreaks af evil. Even a neutral character, usually, will spare someone if they surrender. IMHO only someone evil would pick off cowering non-combantants. I know the pC was chaotic as well but chaotic isn't a liscense to do evil acts. I think you should let this player know you felt what he did was evil and advise him that if he continues to do evil acts his alignment may need to be tweeked. okay, ya'll can flame me now.

 

[Eternalknight]

(Is this better hong? ) I didn't reward experience in that encounter, as it was hardly challenging. There is no reason for this character to hate hobgoblins; the characters are all out adventuring, trying to gain fame and fortune. I have no doubt that if it had of been, say, kobolds, he would have done the same thing. Ok the celestial looks to be a bad idea. My game is on Sunday, and what worries me is that I have one p***ed of player (the dead druid) and a character who seems to like killing for the sake of killing. It's gonna be one ugly game...

 

[Umbran]

What do I do? Is it evil? I am considering sending a long a celestial to keep watch on this character (my campaign involves the planes a bit). What would you do?

The very first thing I'd do is stop using a dark color for text on message boards that use a dark background [edit: okay, you fixed that while I was typing]

Whether this counts as an evil act depends a bit on your take on alignments and creatures. If, in your world, evil is "the nature of the beast", and essentially no hobgoblin grows up to be good, then the act probably isn't evil. If, however, hobgoblin evil is more a cultural thing and the children have free will to choose their path, then the act is rather nastier.

As for the celestial... What would be his purpose? To punish the character and keep him within his alignment? If so, my answer is No. Big No.

PCs are supposed to have free will. You don't enforce alignment. Alignment is not supposed to be a restriction on character actions. Alignment is instead the result of character actions. The actions choose the alignment, not the other way around. You don't tell a player, "Your character cannot do that, because he is of Good alignment." You tell a player, "Having done that, you are now less Good than you were."

Alignment is not a rule the character must follow, it is a guideline for the DM to know how certain things (like Protection from Evil spells) interact with the character. Characters who act in an evil manner should suffer the natural consequences for their actions, but you shouldn't go out of your way to create new conseqences (like a celestial following him for no reason). The problem will probably self-correct as the other players realize this character is a menace.

 

[Lazybones]

What if they'd been human bandits, who happened to have children present? I know that we assume that hobgoblins are "inherently evil" (although the SRD says they are "usually" LE, not "always"), but does that justify slaughtering the kids? I agree with Harlock, that killing non-coms, while it can often be justified by non-good characters, just smacks of evil to me. It's similar to the debate that often comes up for 1st level characters, whether to execute prisoners taken via the sleep spell.

Justified? Perhaps. Heroic? I don't think so.

Just my 2c.
LB

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Well, I am pretty sure that an average human commoner in this world would be grateful for what the elf did-less risk that some hobgoblins will raze his village in near future.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Hobgoblin kids

Personally, I am very against this. But even beyond that, why should he get xp for this? One doesn't get xp for killing innocent things. I should consider talking to the Player one on one and tell him how you feel about the kids and Druid. Tell him he is crossing a line with YOU and if he persists yank his character. Bottom line is, you are the DM and it's your world. The DM is (nearly) always right. Just don't do it in front of the other players. A good DM is like good management. Praise in public, scold in private.

Jennifer

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Some people here seem to be really oversensitive! It is right for a neutral character to slay all members of the race that is perceived as evil!

 

[zyzzyr]

Similarly...

I had a "prisoner" scenario in a gaming session as well (as DM). The group (CN half-orc Bbn, NG dwarf fighter, NG elf druid, NG elf wizard, N halfling rogue) had cleared out the mine, except for one area. Two pitiful, wretched, half-starved and half-dead kobolds were hiding in a corner, scared out of their minds by the skeletons. They immediately surrendered to the PCs, and promised to reveal everything they knew. The group tied up the kobolds, and dragged them around the mine (of course the kobolds were freaking out). The group interrogated the kobolds about any possible secret passages, and got information about a secret elevator. It was trapped, but the kobolds didn't know this.

The rogue searches it and finds a trap. The barbarian gets mad that the kobolds didn't tell them about the trap (bbn has int 9, not exactly stupid), as does the dwarf. They start roughing up the kobolds (who are still tied up, starving, and half-dead). The kobolds shriek "We didn't know! We tell everything!" And the barbarian lops the first kobold's head off. They start roughing up the next kobold, who is crying, whimpering, huddled on the floor. The dwarf CdGs it.

Now, the way they handled that, to me, was an evil act. There's no way the kobolds would know of the trap - it's not like they run the place. Even though the bbn acted in character by getting angry, killing them *because they didn't know* was over the line, as far as i was concerned. The second kobold was huddled on the floor, almost licking their boots, and they still execute it? *Especially* a NG character?

The two elves were horrified. (Considering it was their first time playing D&D, I could completely understand).

We all ended up in an argument, them trying to convince me that what they did was good because they killed off evil monsters, me trying to convince them that torture and summary execution while pleading for mercy is not a good act.

I'm still split on the issue, though, meaning I'd like validation of my opinion What do you people think of their act?