D&D 3E/3.5 Questions (3.5ed)

[Volomon]

First off I just want to say, this is an awesome place to get answers. If not the best place. Since I keep getting questions in my head I'm just calling this thread Questions and then I can come back and edit this post with questions instead of racking up a ton of threads. I'm not sure I'll have any more but I might.

#1: Why do people keep saying that the Candle of Invocation is auto win for a wizard? It gives +2 spell level for CLERICS, and it grants gate. Apparently the idea is to gate an Efretti and ask for a Staff of Wishes. Get infinite stats, but I see problems with this first you have to be the same alignment as the Efretti Lawful Evil, I don't know that many campaigns that makes it easy to be that alignment when your in a party of Good. Eventually by 5th level under a decent DM you've probably already shifted alignment by the time you had money to purchase this candle. As for the "infinite" stats the most you can get is +5 from an inherit bonus. So I'm lost there too. Then to get an Staff Of Wishes it has to be 25,000 gp or less, otherwise a decent DM would probably hand you a Staff owned by the most powerful wizard in the land, and your about to die.

I also don't understand how it would help you cast Shapechange sooner in your Wizard career.

So what am I missing here?

#2: Are fighters really fundamentally broken at higher levels? I hear theres really no point as a Cleric can equally do what fighter can potentially do and more, same goes for Druid, is this true? A wizard can also out do a fighter simply summoning a creature as a fighter basically while he blasts the fighter with controls and damage.

Ultimately if you had to build a character out of all the core books PHB, DMG, and all the complete 3.5 class guides like complete warrior and complete mage with limited magic items from DMG only. What would you make for min/maxing purposes?

 

[Dandu]

First off I just want to say, this is an awesome place to get answers. If not the best place.

Try Giant in the Playground or Brilliant Gameologists sometime.

#1: Why do people keep saying that the Candle of Invocation is auto win for a wizard? It gives +2 spell level for CLERICS, and it grants gate.

I think you just answered your own question.

Apparently the idea is to gate an Efretti and ask for a Staff of Wishes.

Or just gate it in and get three wishes out of it... wishing for more candles of invocation, since they are cheap enough to be safely wished for.

Get infinite stats, but I see problems with this first you have to be the same alignment as the Efretti Lawful Evil

An excellent alignment to be, if I do say so myself.

I don't know that many campaigns that makes it easy to be that alignment when your in a party of Good.

Alternately, a high enough UMD skill will let you emulate the required alignment.

Guess what skill the Loremaster prestige class (for wizards) gives you?

Eventually by 5th level under a decent DM you've probably already shifted alignment by the time you had money to purchase this candle.

You can still be in a good party doing good things and remain a total dick.

As for the "infinite" stats the most you can get is +5 from an inherit bonus.

The infinite stats trick, so I hear, operates on a completely different principal.

 

[Volomon]

The infinite stats trick, so I hear, operates on a completely different principal.

I've yet to see anyone say what this is. Fundamentally even the spell Wish says the limit is +5 and so does the PHB on page 10 it says any PERMANENT increase is considered an inherit with a max of +5 so I don't see how you can get around this rule in any case at all.

You can still be in a good party doing good things and remain a total dick.

Attitude does not equal alignment, actions do, every adventure you do where you are "doing good things" should shift your alignment by one, unless you do an equal amount of evil acts. A good character can easily be in a "bad mood".

Or just gate it in and get three wishes out of it... wishing for more candles of invocation, since they are cheap enough to be safely wished for.

Actually after rereading it it says the value is of a NON-magic item. Below that though it says create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. Personally this would easily be under the DM's privy to abuse the player as it goes beyond reasonable means layed out under the Wish description. Even under the wish description you can not create an effect of Sor/Wiz9 so it's unlikely for you to be granted an item of that similar ability.

 

[Dandu]

I've yet to see anyone say what this is. Fundamentally even the spell Wish says the limit is +5 and so does the PHB on page 10 it says any PERMANENT increase is considered an inherit with a max of +5 so I don't see how you can get around this rule in any case at all.

Google "Pun Pun".

Attitude does not equal alignment, actions do.

Where does it say this?

Actually after rereading it it says the value is of a NON-magic item. Below that though it says create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Yeah, that about covers what I had in mind.

Personally this would easily be under the DM's privy

As is the entire game, really.

it goes beyond reasonable means layed out under the Wish description. Even under the wish description you can not create an effect of Sor/Wiz9 so it's unlikely for you to be granted an item of that similar ability.

And that's a great opinion to have, but at the end of the day it's your opinion.

 

[Volomon]

Where does it say this?

Charisma, by its nature in game denotes not only physical appearance but outward social demeanor aka being a dick. This is not an effect on alignment. Again page 10 PHB, A character with low Charisma may be reserved, gruff, rude (aka a dick), fawning or simply nondescript. It's just one of those basic things a GM with 10+ years knows. Works this way in most if not all games I know of. There more in DMG pg. 128 it gives you a bunch of random traits to give NPCs also a bit on Attitudes, being a dick is an attitude not an alignment.

Google "Pun Pun".

I actually haven't seen anything on how this actually works either, as all Permanent increases are again inherit, as it was at first an enhancement after it becomes permanent it becomes inherit, so I don't see how Pun Pun works either. I suspect these creations are things from AD&D that have just survived into 3rd and 3.5 editions without question, but honestly I have no idea how these creations came about because they go beyond the rules.

So I chalk all this up to one of those things people haven't figure out in several years of attempting to use these builds.

 

[Dandu]

Charisma, by its nature in game denotes not only physical appearance but outward social demeanor aka being a dick. This is not an effect on alignment. Again page 10 PHB, A character with low Charisma may be reserved, gruff, rude (aka a dick), fawning or simply nondescript. It's just one of those basic things a GM with 10+ years knows. Works this way in most if not all games I know of. There more in DMG pg. 128 it gives you a bunch of random traits to give NPCs also a bit on Attitudes, being a dick is an attitude not an alignment.

What I meant to ask was, where does it say actions, not intent, determine alignment?

I actually haven't seen anything on how this actually works either, as all Permanent increases are again inherit, as it was at first an enhancement after it becomes permanent it becomes inherit, so I don't see how Pun Pun works either. I suspect these creations are things from AD&D that have just survived into 3rd and 3.5 editions without question, but honestly I have no idea how these creations came about because they go beyond the rules.

It's third edition.

 

[Volomon]

What I meant to ask was, where does it say actions, not intent, determine alignment?

Pg 104, last paragraph Animals and other creatures incapable of moral ACTIONS this is the difference actions with moral content, frankly not trying to be rude it's just a plain given. Intent has a purpose but only so far in making a mistake, but it's ultimately the action that follows that gives the results. Intent in itself can not make you good or evil, you can intend all you want to save someone falling off a cliff, but if you stand there and watch with all the intent in your heart to eventually get over there after you ate your banana. You just did something evil you prioritize your stomach over the life of the individual.

Evil is a moral act (action) Chaotic or Lawful is a action in itself to obey or not obey the law (man made or code of conduct), and to point out the personal nature of conduct can be varied so this is a bit grey. Intent has no purpose at all because it's a neutral position, until it's acted upon or failed to be acted upon in the case of the guy and the banana.

It also says Evil is the act of hurting, oppressing, and killing others. These are the actions you must take, these action do not have to involve direct physical contact/violence, the act can involve taking money off another player character for your own purposes. Lying to the cleric for the purposes of leaving behind an individual so you can brutally torture him for information to further the adventure. Lawful does not mean you follow the law of man, but a rule of conduct.

It's third edition.

Ahh, well see I still see it being used in 3.5 or attempted to be used, and displayed as a viable build for 3.5.

Also on a previous note,

And that's a great opinion to have, but at the end of the day it's your opinion.

In the PHB under wish, unusual requests and overpowered wishes fall under the dangerous guideline, gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's current owner. A candle of invocation was just used to get wishes, yes it's an opinion, but I would have to say its a widely common opinion that this might prove to be to powerful. If a DM doesn't agree with that opinion then more power to him but I say that campaign is going down the wrong road. Ultimately that part of the wish is always under DM control, hence no defined limit in the Wish description.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Ahh, well see I still see it being used in 3.5 or attempted to be used, and displayed as a viable build for 3.5.

It is also valid for 3.5, as the content it is based upon received one of the "update docs" that didn't actually change the key parts of Pun Pun. [sblock=Pun Pun] For those, like myself, that had never seen Pun Pun described, I'll cover it in brief.

1. Be a Kobold (for the reptilian sub-type without a level adjustment).
2. Gain the ability to shapeshift.
3. Take the Assume Supernatural Trait feat.
4. Turn into a Forgotten Realms monster (the 14 HD Sarrukh).
5. Use its special ability to give yourself massive ability scores that are exactly the same as what you generate at character creation.
6. Use its special ability to acquire every ability possessed by every stat-block (including gods) in the game (takes about a month of in-game time to get everything, including ability scores in the trillions).

The discussion thread.
A summary.[/sblock]

The fact that the build will eventually work as described is indisputable. What level that happens at is a bit more debatable (the current standard is ECL 5), but that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

[sjmiller]

Ah ha! I finally figured out this whole pun-pun thing and why I have never heard of it being attempted. It assumes that your DM allows you to play a kobold, that you are using Forgotten Realms or it's creatures, that Assume Supernatural Traits is an allowed feat (where does that come from anyway?), and that your DM and your party will let you spend a month of in game time doing this.

I have yet to meet a DM who would allow this "perfect storm" to exist. Heck, I have yet to find a DM that lets people play kobolds, not that I want to be one.

 

[Dandu]

It's not so much about what will be allowed as what the rules will allow if intepreted with as little bias as possible.

So more of a though excercise.

Anyways, re: morality, the Book of Exhalted Deeds states that intent matters as well as actions, so performing good actions alone will not redeem an evildoer.