Questions about Counterspelling

[reichtfeld]

I mentioned counterspelling with dispel magic a bit later. Olgar knows firsthand that my wizard in his game doesn't have a spitting chance of dispelling any enemy fireballs, since he's an enchanter with evocation banned. But I still have the satisfaction of hearing him groan out "Oh God, I hate his spells." I took a huge min for fighting undead and constructs so that I could max out vs. living, sentient opponents and make them my beotch. I first got interested in the notion of counterspelling when thinking about scribing dispel magic to use and add to the character's versatility, which eventually snowballed into the idea of the viability of specialized counterspelling.

Olgar: I have enormous respect for your opinions on game balance and would love to know your thoughts on all of the topics here. Focused Dispel, Mastery of Counterspelling, Counterspell Riposte, the possibility of a counterspell spell-like ability feat or perhaps the special ability for a counterspell PrC. If you were going to DM a high level campaign (we can always hope), what sort of guidelines would you set if I proposed a wizard loaded to bear with his feats and spellbook for counterspelling? And you know first person just how underhanded I can be with making the fullest use of an arsenal. It's outright sick when I start blowing my highest level spell slots to torture troglodytes because I know the rest of the group is running low and will have to rest after the current encounter.

 

[diaglo]

It's outright sick when I start blowing my highest level spell slots to torture troglodytes because I know the rest of the group is running low and will have to rest after the current encounter.

who needs rest. i still had almost my whole arsenal of spells available. i had only used 1 of Bartol's Bravados.

the true barbarian counterspell is a flask of acid or flaming oil.

 

[Simulacrum]

@reichtfeld.

I said that a mage with access to all the CS feats and Mastery of counterspelling (as feat or feature) is at less risk than an aggro mage. I can proof it. It much easier to create an defensive mage who can outclever his opponent than creating an Aggro mage who is ready for every situation that might occur.
Now as haste is gone you'll have a hard time knocking the defensive mage off his guard. He will simply have all the tactical advantage in his hand. Just try it yourself, you'll see that I'm right.

 

[reichtfeld]

Simulacrum: But isn't complaining that a clever character defeats an aggressor as silly as complaining that a rich character with a lot of hired mercs defeats a poor character? Even an overtly aggressive character has to be clever if they are going to be effective. While the "all power attack, all the time" strategy that diaglo's barbarian employs in our game works against Joe Schmoe the goblin, it certainly wouldn't hold water vs. an equipped, prepared duelist that made best use of terrain, positioning, special attacks, and the like. Not to mention any sort of advanced monster with its array of special abilities. Any successful adventurer of any class has to be clever to make it far; I don't think that is a defensive/offensive issue.

I would hardly say a counterspelling specialized caster is at less risk than any other mage. They have their strengths and weaknesses. Taking counterspelling feats means you aren't taking spell focus and g. spell focus to jack up DCs for offense, it means you aren't taking the choice metamagic feats to bump up damage potential, and the list goes on. And at the risk of pointing out the obvious, you can't just dispel that fierce barbarian that's charging you. Granted, he'd be stuck in a maze for a good while.

I can respect your opinion that a counterspell-focused mage has an advantage one-for-one in single combat with an evoker, but that doesn't make him unbalanced. That's his strength when balanced against the sacrifices he makes for such a specialization. No one class or build can do it all the best. A lone fighter is in his element vs. an ogre or somesuch, but he is SOL when it's time to roll the will save vs. being charmed or dominated into a caster's service. A lone rogue is good for quite a lot, but that doesn't include having the hitpoints for an extended stand-up engagement.

With respect to the entire gameworld, do you think that certain counterspelling feats unbalance a sor/wiz and give them an unfair advantage? If any character dedicates so much in feats and resources then it's their due to shine in one area, but it's at the expense of others.

 

[Simulacrum]

thnx I appreciate your kind reply but:

a) I never said that the CS mage was unbalanced with the current rules (au contraire I said he is balanced)

b) my example was for wiz vs. wiz

c) pointing out the obvious is unecessary in my case

d) with most things you are right, and you have a good talent analizing out things very objective

e) my major point was that if you overdo CS capabilities in D&D defense gets way too strong quickly, because it is HELLA strong with the possibilities it has now...agree?

 

[reichtfeld]

Am I wrong to construe that if something is "way too strong" then it is unbalanced? Simulacrum, if you are a DM or had to DM a game at high levels what counterspelling feats would you allow or disallow? Perhaps only certain combinations?

 

[diaglo]

specialization

a couple other things to consider.

the spellcraft skill: the important component to any counterspelling.

if you are a specialized caster and the spell is in your school of magic. do you still receive the +2 bonus to identify? i think the wording is something like +2 to learn the spell. but i guess that would apply to counterspelling as well.

the feat spell focus and its more powerful variants would also be helpful. as would a high int. maybe skill focus (spellcraft). and more importantly improved init. since you must have your counterspell readied to use.



things to consider before you go down the road of counterspelling master:

1) the amount of magic in the campaign. just how many spellcasters are you likely to meet or battle? if you look at the rules for generating a typical town or city. the majority of the population of potential rivals are noncasters.

2) what are the benefits to using all of your available spell slots in the hopes you will get to use them as a counterspell? or if you decide to cast them as normal, what are the risks someone will counter you?

3) how many feats do you get? and if you use them to bump up your counterspell effectiveness can you now use them for other purposes?

 

[officeronin]

1. Sure -- why not?

2. Spell Hawk (out of Quint. Wizard) doe this. I'd ignore the caps...

3. I don't own path of Magic.

4. There's one in Quint Wizard that allows you to change the "targeting" of the spell...

5. I don't know of any PrCs that focus on counterspelling.

OfficeRonin

 

[reichtfeld]

Ronin: Spell Hawk from Quintessential Wizard seems to be a bit fudged by my reckoning, though. Counterspell Riposte was described earlier in the thread; a metamagic feat that adds +2 to spell level, but after successfully counterspelling a spell you can use the enhanced spell as a free action in response. I don't know much about sorcerers, but as I understand it they take a full round action to cast anything with metamagic since they don't prepare spells ahead. So this feat seems null and void for them. And yes, the feat does stipulate it has to be an enemy spell. So no having some 1st level sorcerer you've hired go casting cantrips so you can pop off a quickened spell for half the cost and outside of your turn.

the spellcraft skill: the important component to any counterspelling.

Agreed. I have never played a sor/wiz that I didn't max Spellcraft, but the importance for a counterspelling specialist bears more emphasis. If not planning on the Loremaster PrC, it would possibly be worth adding Skill Focus (Spellcraft) if the feat were fixed to +3. I'd like to think they will make that fix with 3.5e. Potential Loremasters have to use the Skill Focus for a Knowledge.

the feat spell focus and its more powerful variants would also be helpful. as would a high int. maybe skill focus (spellcraft). and more importantly improved init. since you must have your counterspell readied to use.

What schools would you recommend spell focusing and why? The only one I'd ever really consider would be transmutation because of the nice mix of debuffs and attacks. If not pursuing Loremaster, I would trade the Skill Focus for Spell Focus (transmutation). But I'd pursue Loremaster for its benefits and roleplaying value. Having mini-bardic knowledge and Use Magic Device is nice. So far as Improved Init, it's a prereq. for Reactive Counterspell, which lets you counterspell without a readied action. When I reread the feat I realized you don't even have to delay your action, because counterspelling after your turn in an initiative round takes away your action from the next round. Now that's some flexibility.

1) the amount of magic in the campaign. just how many spellcasters are you likely to meet or battle? if you look at the rules for generating a typical town or city. the majority of the population of potential rivals are noncasters.

People? Yes. Monsters? No. And against mundane opponents, a wizard is far from helpless no matter what feats they take. (If this thread seems to ignore sorcerers, it's due to my lack of interest and experience with them) My own preference would be to prepare a "random encounter" repertoire that mixes any combination of dispels, buffs, debuffs, attacks, and general utility spells. But at higher levels the right divinations allow for much more deliberate preparations in planned encounters.

2) what are the benefits to using all of your available spell slots in the hopes you will get to use them as a counterspell? or if you decide to cast them as normal, what are the risks someone will counter you?

No need to use every spell slot every day or encounter for antimagic duty, but the feat progression would mean the character truly excels in that capacity as opposed to sheer damage, item creation, or anything else. What's the risk of an enemy using their own magic to counterspell you? If that's all an enemy does then it means the rest of your party has a free ride in ripping them a new one.

3) how many feats do you get? and if you use them to bump up your counterspell effectiveness can you now use them for other purposes?

A human Wiz 10/Loremaster 10 ends up with 11 feats. 7 feats for character level, 2 metamagic feats for Wizard levels, and 1 racial bonus feat. That leaves room for the feats I've asked about in this thread and some padding as well to spend on extra metamagic, item creation, or anything else. The most impressive thing about a Wiz 10/Loremaster 10 though has to be the skills and special abilities.

diaglo: If you were going to DM a game, what would your opinions be on converting Focused Dispel into a feat and adding a Greater Focused Dispel? Your opinion on Counterspell Riposte? Mastery of Counterspelling converted as a feat with the appropriate prerequisites?

 

[diaglo]

diaglo: If you were going to DM a game, what would your opinions be...

of course, you know it would be Original D&D (1974).


but hypothetically i would do a lot of research many sessions ahead of time. like you are doing.

looking at how other abilities turned to feats work in comparison to the campaign.

start with the ranger's track ability. it is a general feat.

now what about turning various domain abilities from the cleric into feats? some work, like, weapon prof.

others may not. death touch (considering how many people attacked the harm spell )

what about PrC abilities? would you allow the assassin's study and kill attack without a huge prereq? or the +2 Dex and init from one of the domain feats in DoF?

i could see adding some, but it has to be weighed heavily against the campaign.

in my ideal campaign, magic is rare. and magic-users even rarer.

counterspelling feats may be wasted on the low levels, for the few PCs that took them. it would be a big disappointment to the player if he never got the chance to use them.