Questions about Illusion magic.

[Maniac]

I am planning to write an adventure that will feature a high level Illusionist and his “Castle of Illusions” as a major antagonist. I’ve read over the Illusion spells but I wanted to make sure I’ve got everything clear.

Most of my questions revolve around figments and adjudicating their effects. Here are some relevant parts of the SRD.

From the SRD:
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Questions:
1. As far as I can see, only Persistent Image and Programmed Image specifically allow intelligible speech. Even though Major Image allows sound since it does not specifically allow Intelligible Speech it is not allowed – Is this correct?
2. In the Disbelief section it indicates you can still see an outline of the image after a successful save. What about audio and thermal figments? I would assume you would still be able to hear faint sounds and have the sense of the thermal effects. Would speech still be Intelligible on Programmed and Persistent Images after a save?
3. To mask/change an object a glamer must be used. Is there a source for a more versatile way to disguise objects? A disguise object spell? I assume it would be possible to use one of the “X image” spells to entirely block the view to an object though.
4. Is it possible to stack Programmed Images (even over a permanent image) to effectively create a much longer duration spell (one spell sets off the next) or even a complex interactive Illusion? Ex. The party enters a room and sets off the first of many programmed image spell – as this first illusion ends it creates an image that sets off the next programmed image. Depending on how the characters react different programmed images could be set off. If the party moves to one side of the room at the direction of the illusion Programmed Image A might go off but if they don’t move or move to the other side then Programmed Image B goes off. Given enough time and money(for the 25gp component), a high level illusionist could set up a very complex Programmed Illusion that responds to the party and even effectively resets itself. What do you think of that?

I have many more questions but I think that is plenty for now.

Thanks for the help.

M.

 

[Orichin]

1. ventriloquism and magic mouth also give limited forms of audible speech; and correct.
2. Personally I take DM's liscence and say that once an illusion is disbelieved, the disbeliever simply knows it is not real, with no change in sensory input. Since it offers almost no information on non-visual components, you really can't rely on the phb for info here imho (This is a theme that one might notice on any thread concerning illusions). As far as intelligable speech, it depends on how you play it (if audio components are lost or garbled to the disbeliever, intelligable speech could be almost or entirely impossible to detect or comprehend).
3. surrounding an object entirely with an opaque object would hide it, so sez the laws of physics. To those who believe the illusion, the illusory rug on the floor does indeed hide a trap door. Those who see through the illusionary covering though, would...see....through the illusion
4. A modified contingency spell should do the trick for what you've got in mind here. range of touch/close; area being whatever radius you want the spell to 'look' in; whenever the prescribed event occurs within the area, the area contingency would go off, initiating the preset illusion. I'd limit it to low-level spells or illusions only, if you plan on letting PC's learn the spell later.





5-10000000000000000: never forget the DM's prerogative when adjucating illusions. The PHB and DMG and just about any other reference to the matter you'll find leaves illusions almost entirely up to the DM. By their nature they are the singlemost versitile spell category out there short of wish/limited wish (and prestidigitation if you consider it as the lowest denomination of wish). Basically, as DM, don't be afraid to do what you have to do with illusions to keep the game running smoothly or balanced. Since illusions are so complicated, most players will understand if you need to tweak something, even mid-game. 7 times out of 10, the rulebooks' intentional vagueness will pretty much force the DM to make at least one call he wasn't expecting or repeat/assimilate one he made previously.

 

[dcollins]

I'll pitch in on one item here:

3. To mask/change an object a glamer must be used. Is there a source for a more versatile way to disguise objects? A disguise object spell? I assume it would be possible to use one of the “X image” spells to entirely block the view to an object though.

As you say, a glamer must be used -- you definitely cannot use an X-image spell to hide the object (may seem counterintuitive, but apparently they do not function like a hologram).

There is no great core versatile way of accomplishing this, as much as I agree there should be (and it's the kind of thing in a lot of classic AD&D adventures). Basically you need the glamers mirage arcane (Wiz5) or veil (Wiz6, both 1 hour/level).

In my campaign I made a new spell called mask object to do that job (Wiz6, permanent, effects one object 5 lb/level, component 500 gp gem, similar in effect to change self).

Edit: Follows is the response I got from the Sage on this subject in June 2002:

> ----------
> Reply To: Daniel R. Collins
> Posted At: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:05 PM
> Conversation: Illusions Masking Objects
> Subject: Illusions Masking Objects
>
> Skip,
>
> I'm wondering how strictly to interpret the statement that "figments cannot
> make something seem to be something else" (PH p. 158), particularly in
> conjunction with the classic wizardly ruse of casting an illusion which
> makes his spellbook look like a skull, or a magic sword look like a
> worthless torch, etc.
>
The effects you describe are glamers, not figments. See page 158 in the PH.

> - On the one hand, all of the "obvious" illusion spells (silent image...
> permanent image) are figments, and seemingly disallowed by PH p. 158.
> - However, all the visual glamer illusions seem to be restricted to
> creatures only (change self, seeming, veil).
> - On the other hand, PH p. 158 also has an example of characters inside a
> figment-cottage, and I have to assume that they'd be generally obscured from
> vision from the outside.
>
> So, I'm wondering which of the following are allowed under the core rules?
> (a) Making a sword look like a torch via some illusion (I'm not sure which
> one).
>
You need a glamer.


> (b) Making a sword look like a much bigger log (via figment or other).
>
You need a glamer.


> (c) Making a sword be hidden by an illusory container like a chest (via
> figment or other).
>
A figment will work (you're not changing how the sword looks, your placing a figment over the sword.


> (d) Or, you'd need a new illusion spell outside the Core Rules to change the
> visual appearance of an object.
>
As noted earlier, you need a glamer to make a thing look like something else. Most object affecting glamers are pretty high level.

 

[Maniac]

Thanks for the replies.

Mask Object sounds like a perfect spell!

What do you think of having a series of spells (like the various image spells) used to mask objects - would that be too much? It would be desireable to hide objects before aquiring 6th level spells.

Originaly posted by Orichin
4. A modified contingency spell should do the trick for what you've got in mind here. range of touch/close; area being whatever radius you want the spell to 'look' in; whenever the prescribed event occurs within the area, the area contingency would go off, initiating the preset illusion. I'd limit it to low-level spells or illusions only, if you plan on letting PC's learn the spell later.

Why is a contingency needed? Does the Programmed Illusion not allow scripted events? If it can be triggerd as a Magic Mouth then I believe you can have audio or visual triggers. If so then by carefully setting the trigger conditions it seems like it should be possible to stack a bunch of permanent Illusions and have only certain ones go off. It would be strange for the party if they somehow triggerd multiple illusions simultaneously.


M.