Questions about Lion Extraordinary Abilities

[DrSpunj]

Shameless Bump

like the title says...

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Hmm...

I'm still not sold on how Pounce mechanically applies as simply making a Charge action on the first combat round seems pretty basic to get 2 extra attacks

What, exactly, don't you understand? "mechanically applies" -> "2 extra attacks"

Are you asking about how it works, if it's balanced, or something else?

 

[DrSpunj]

Re: Re: Hmm...

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. We played last night and winter finally came to Iowa.

What, exactly, don't you understand? "mechanically applies" -> "2 extra attacks"

Are you asking about how it works, if it's balanced, or something else?

My big remaining question is how you Activate a Pounce. I now understand it only applies on the first round of any given combat, and that once engaged it gives the Lion 2 extra Rake attacks on top of its normal 2 Claw and Bite attack for just that first round. But how, as a DM, do you think it should happen in the first place? Just have the creature do it?

Player: I start summoning a Celestial Lion over by the Elven Assassin.

[1 round passes]

DM: Okay, your Celestial Lion appears next to the Elven Assassin; what does it do?

Player: Umm, it Pounces on the Elf and therefore gets 5 attacks on the Elf instead of its normal 3.

DM: Okay, how does the Pounce work?

Player: Umm, it just does.

I'm not trying to be flippant, but that was very similar to the conversation I had with my DM last week. Does a Pounce just automatically happen on the first round of combat with any Lion or is there some mechanic involved in making it happen? A Jump check? A Melee touch attack? Several here have suggested a Charge attack?

How would you rule it in your game?

 

[SpikeyFreak]

The way I would run this is:

If you read P.137 of the PHB on grappling rules, under Other Grappling Options, it says you can attack with a light weapon while grappling, but not two weapons as you need atleast one hand to maintain the grapple. Since natural weapons are considered light the lion can use its natural attacks while grappling, including its rake attack, but since the improved grab is made with the bite attack I would guess that it cannot use its bite attack. So each round the grapple is maintained the lion would get 2 claw and 2 rake attacks.

I don't have my books with me and I can't find it in the SRD, but I'm pretty sure that if a creature grapples you with improved grapple and a natural weapon, the natural weapon automatically deals damage as long as the creature maintains the grapple.

Anyone care to look it up or show me where improved grapple is in the SRD?

--Search Ranks 1 Spikey

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Ah found it:

A successful hold does not deal any additional damage unless the creature also has the constrict ability. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage listed for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is listed in the creature’s descriptive text).

So it deals normal damage with the attack it grapples with.

--Repeating Spikey

 

[ruleslawyer]

Aha. I see your problem.

1) The lion's pounce ability allows it to move up to its speed and make a full attack on the first round of combat only .

2) If the lion hits with its bite attack, it may immediately make an opposed grapple check to gain a hold.

3) If the lion gets a hold, then it gets two immediate rake attacks.

SPECIAL CASE: If the lion executes an attack using the pounce ability, then it may rake without needing to get a hold.

Read together, this means your DM is correct. On the first round of combat (only), a lion may (a) move; (b) make a full attack; and (c) make two additional rake attacks without needing to score a hold. In short, no additional mechanics are required to see whether a lion may make rake attacks on the first round of combat.

You could theoretically require the lion to move before attacking in order to get rake attacks, but I don't think this is required under the rules (the pounce ability allows the lion to move and attack on the first round of combat; it doesn't require that the lion do so).

 

[Mahali]

The pounce works by announcing it during the lions first turn in combat.
"And on my turn the lion moves here and pounces on this guy."
The only thing Pounce allows is the lion to move more than 5' and still get its full attacks in plus the Rake attacks. It can only do this once per combat.
To continue to Rake it needs to use Improved Grab.
If you want to apply real life to it a lion doesn't need to charge or move. Most of the great cats can jump from a stand still that puts Olympic long jumpers to shame. Even your housecat can pounce on something right next to it. It just jumps straight up.

 

[DrSpunj]

Okay...

It seems pretty much everyone is in agreement that Pounce is automatic and there is no mechanic involved for it to kick in. I guess they figured this was limited by the fact it only is usable on the first round of combat. I guess they also figured for the rest of the combat opponents would be expecting it so it wouldn't work.

Thanks all for the answers!

PS. Can anyone help me with the Light/Darkness problems? Lots of nibbles and only 1 bite!

[grammar fix]