D&D 4E Questions about move and attack - and my newfound disappointment with 4E reach

[Mort_Q]

That... is so boring

Which is? That reach isn't broken, or that OAs don't completely screw people over?

You can get lots of OA every round in 4e... don't judge them by 3e standards.

 

[Ricochet]

I'm not comparing with 3rd edition at all. I'm not out to "screw" anyone, and I'm frankly insulted at that notion. My group has always enjoyed reach elements in combat, in any game system we've used, believe it or not.

Also, from what I have read so far, its mostly the players who will be getting tons of OA's in a round, not so much the monsters (though some will, no doubt, but I haven't gotten through much of the MM yet).

Anyway, I flipped through the MM and can conclude that neither giants, dragons or even Orcus, with his massive reach, can't threaten things 3-4 squares away charging at them. This disappoints me and my two players currently here at my house just now (who also don't feel screwed).

Why do they even need reach then, I wonder, when anyone can stand 2 squares away from a reach 4 monster and fire away with arrows. We are probably misreading stuff again, but from the looks of it, unless it says "Threatening Reach" or certain powers use reach for OAs, monsters' reach is mostly for simply attacking people from afar on its own turn. Clever strikers (terrain/mobility/line of sight willing) will simply stay out of reach.

Now I'm not trying to insult anyone, just following up on my rules question with a 4E complaint/observation resulting from discussing it.

 

[Mort_Q]

Sorry... I didn't mean to insinuate that you were out to screw anyone....

I meant only to imply that given that 4e OAs work differently than 3e AoOs, allowing all creatures to have the ability to threaten within their reach range would screw people over.

 

[Ricochet]

Sorry... I didn't mean to insinuate that you were out to screw anyone....

Ah, no worries

I meant to only imply that given that 4e OAs work differently than 3e AoO, allowing all creatures to have the ability to threaten within their reach range would screw people over.

I'm sure that might be the case, yeah. It seems there is a distinct lack of "threatening reach", and I'd reason that a creature like an ancient dragon would at least be able to bite/tail slap someone before they come up to them, but I think it needs to be moderated a lot, yes.

The "One OA per combatant" rather than one per round surely allows things to get way out of hand if under 3E rules, I completely agree

 

[ltbaxter]

A) The character is assumed to still be in his "move action" despite whatever interrupted it. He has only moved 2 squares, and can just walk right back up to the Ettin using his remaining "square allotment".]

Definitely 'A', there's nothing about the Ettin's action that prevents the character from continuing to move. WotC gave a response on a similar action, a character charging a creature with an Immediate Interrupt of shift when foes moves adjacent. If you have enough movement left to still reach your foe, the charges proceeds as normal. If not, he finishes move as far as he can go but no attack. The other key point: seeing if an immediate reaction trigger applies at *each* square of the move, not just at the end. So for movement, each individual step proceeds without some 'called move' program to follow.

A key consideration in applying rules is not to overthink things and apply additional effects that aren't there. In this particular case, we see why immediate actions and/opportunity attacks are limited in how often they can occur (otherwise it would be *really* hard to get next to the Ettin)

 

[Cadfan]

Now, if it was an Ettin Fighter with the ability to immediately stop a foe's movement whenever he hits them with an attack of opportunity...

 

[Mort_Q]

Fighter templated Ettins FTW!

 

[JesterOC]

Having read and re-read the combat chapter in the PHB, I am left confused as to what happens if something interrupts a move using a move action.
...
A) The character is assumed to still be in his "move action" despite whatever interrupted it. He has only moved 2 squares, and can just walk right back up to the Ettin using his remaining "square allotment".
...

If it is A, it makes push-back-defenses like the Ettin's somewhat useless unless the character is exactly in range, and thus can't re-run up to it after the push. This seems very weak and, well, not too challenging then.

So.. Anyone know how we are -supposed- to play this?

Ok so I read the ettin stat block. The way I read it, the basic attack is not meant to hold attackers off, rather it is to manipulate the battlefield. It can be used to push fighters back to allow the ettin to use a full move instead of shift when it wants to disengage. Or it can push characters into damaging terrain or traps.

The Ettin Marauder does have an ability to swat at attackers flanking him and pushes them 3 squares back. this has a better chance of acting the way you want it to.

If you really want to have have an Ettin be able to keep foes at bay I suggest a level of fighter. This will let the enemy get right next to him, then when he performs his basic attack, the target is pushed back 1 and its move ends. It also gives him combat challenge and weapon talent. That should be everything you need to make that Ettin one hard nut to crack.

JesterOC

Edit: oops I think The fighter template does not help. YOu can't OA a creature coming towards the ettin, only if the target is trying to disengage or step around.

 

[Hussar]

What could be really fun is two creatures with threatening reach and the Ettin's push ability.

Ping pong anyone?

 

[Ricochet]

WotC gave a response on a similar action, a character charging a creature with an Immediate Interrupt of shift when foes moves adjacent. If you have enough movement left to still reach your foe, the charges proceeds as normal.

Another (almost) completely useless monster ability then, unless the character spends -exactly- his speed in getting there. I just don't see the great "hurrah!" for such abilities then, if they in essence are meaningless most of the time, unless used in very tactical situations like:

It shifts back to stand in line with its other two friends with readied actions to hit stuff in front of them. Or stepping back, triggering the pit trap in the square it stood on to open for the player to fall into etc.

Oh, which brings on this question - can the player then opt to -stop- moving, or must he "complete the move" and wind up in hot water?

(otherwise it would be *really* hard to get next to the Ettin)

It would be easy enough I think. He has two ways to get next to it.
1) Either the ettin misses, or if it hits, 2) the character just spends his standard action to move, as the ettin only gets one OA on the character's turn.

And... Bring on the templated ettin's! I can imagine the carnage what with its 2 turns in a round *grins*